JAIME: Welcome to Outgrowth: A Slice of Pro Beauty with your hosts Jaime Schrabeck.

ASHLEY: And Ashley Gregory Hackett. Through our work, we produce huge amounts of waste, most of which just ends up in a landfill. As an industry, we tend to spend lots of time focused on business best practices, but how can we also improve sustainability?

JAIME: Our special guest Alex Payne from TerraCycle describes how we can recycle everything. Let’s grow together.  

JAIME: Welcome to Outgrowth, Alex.

ALEX: Hey, it’s so great to be here. This is my first kind of foray into this medium so I’m so excited to be here with you guys and really sharing about what I’m passionate about and what TerraCycle is passionate about.

JAIME: Tell us more about TerraCycle because coming from the beauty industry I’m not that familiar with the company.

ALEX: Sure, that makes a lot of sense. So first, if I may just kind of give you a bit of a background of recycling in general and some of its current challenges. Obviously, globally, recycling systems exist, but they’re on the decline. Not sure if you or any of your listeners would be aware of this, but a couple years back, it made headlines. Early 2018, China announced that it would no longer accept a lot of the plastics generated in the United States and this left a lot of conventional recyclers in the US stuck with plastics and no end markets to sell it to. All of recycling is essentially governed by economics, like a lot of things in our lives. So honestly since early 2018, there’s kind of been a perfect storm brewing in the world of recycling and the COVID-19 pandemic is almost like the straw that broke the camel’s back because, you know, we’re all home.

We’re all producing more waste during home quarantine, and frankly, the fragmented municipal recycling system doesn’t really have the resources to manage this additional influx in material. If it costs more to process the material then the material is actually worth, the waste will likely not be recycled in municipal facilities and therefore is landfilled. This is where TerraCycle and our philosophy of eliminating the idea of waste comes in. We’re internationally renowned for recycling the types of waste that are non-recyclable through conventional methods like your municipality’s curbside blue bin recycling program. Most recycling companies, they concentrate on things like traditional waste streams, aluminum, paper, specific types of plastic, but we really made a name for ourselves in recycling the unrecyclable. This takes the form of, gosh, anything from cigarette butts, beauty industry-related waste like aerosol containers, so even stuff like used chewing gum, stuff you would never in a thousand years think is recyclable. 

JAIME: Starting with the idea that recycling is something that we may be familiar with in terms of plastic bottles and aluminum cans, and we think of it as something that might happen locally, that as you’re describing it as an economic issue, you’re explaining a situation where this is really a global enterprise and a global problem because you just mentioned China. So if we’re disposing of our local waste, we may not understand where this product may actually end up 

ALEX: Exactly.

JAIME: And what role China plays in this process.

ALEX: Prior to 2018, a lot of the plastics collected in the United States, the end market was ultimately China and abroad. A lot of the plastics, and I’m talking about conventional recyclers, like the type of thing you would throw in your blue bin and then it’s hauled off by a recycling truck, that sort of thing. A lot of it doesn’t stay domestically, and is exported for processing abroad, and a huge market for this was China. So essentially what happened is they were getting so much essentially unusable material,  cause the problem with contamination for recyclables. It’s a huge problem in the industry. And what was happening with China is they would get these huge shipping containers full of plastic and about like 60% of it would be like unusable. They’d have to throw it out and only about 40% would actually be recyclable.  

JAIME: Was that because it wasn’t being sorted properly or because it wasn’t cleaned properly before it was disposed of?

ALEX: All of the above really. Yeah. In terms of cleaning, in terms of separating it, it was just not being managed in the right way, essentially, which led to the Chinese government cracking down on that sort of thing. Because what they found is a lot of the recyclables were just being thrown into the environment which is the exact opposite of what we should be trying to accomplish by recycling.

ASHLEY: As a millennial, I remember learning about number one and number two, and those are the numbers you can put into your blue bin, and you have to separate your papers. But coming from Chicago, which has an abysmal recycling record, and it’s very much mismanaged, I can assume that other municipalities, as you’ve explained, are up against the same problems whether it’s public knowledge or the expense involved. So tell me more about how TerraCycle has been able to be so innovative in collecting the things that nobody thought was recyclable and making that into a process.

ALEX: Yeah. Great question. So I like to explain it almost like we cracked the code or we have the secret sauce, if you will, of how we go about not only collecting it, but recycling it. So a lot of our programs are sponsored by big names in the industry. These brands are stepping up and footing the bill for the processing, the managing, and the ultimate conversion of these recyclables. So that’s kind of the way we’ve separated ourselves from conventional companies in terms of the way we collect the waste and process it is very different.

ASHLEY: To clarify, these are brands that have partnered with TerraCycle in order to financially support the process. When a brand becomes a partner with TerraCycle, what does that actually mean?

ALEX: Yeah. So essentially we approach a brand or they approach us. We first develop a recycling solution for their specific type of packaging. So that’s kind of where we get the ball rolling. So we do that R and D and they fund it. Then once we have a solution in place, we start to roll out the national program whether it’s like a mail-in recycling program, a drop-off location recycling program, or a hybrid between the two.  

JAIME: Alex, tell us about the typical type of products you could recycle as TerraCycle that we would produce in a salon setting.

ALEX: Perfect. One of our most popular avenues for people to recycle through us, those are our free recycling programs. We have a huge, huge slew of free national recycling programs. Fun fact is at the end of 2020, out of our entire catalog, just about 30% are actually for beauty industry-related waste, so just about a third. I’ve been with TerraCycle for about two years now as an employee, and I just noticed like the uptick in the amount of beauty partnerships we’ve had in that short time period has just exploded and that’s cool to communicate. So just in the realm of beauty within the past year,  TerraCycle’s introduced recycling programs. I can just list these off:for  Aether Beauty, Arbonne, Herbal Essences aerosols, Living Proofs’ packaging and aerosols, TULA Skincare, Schwarzkopf’s hair, packaging, and aerosols. And these are actually in addition to an already really robust catalog of existing beauty partnerships, including programs with ACURE, Amika, Aussie, Better Natured, bliss. Burt’s Bees, eos, Eva NYC, Hair Food, Josie Moran, LimeLife, L’Occitane, Paula’s Choice, My Black is Beautiful, MyKirei, Weleda, and Garnier. I don’t think I’m leaving anybody out there, but I thought I would mention those. 

JAIME: With these partnerships, Alex, are only that company’s products then allowed to be deposited in the container that TerraCycle provides?

ALEX: Yes. Another great question. So a lot of these programs, yes, are limited to that specific product. However, a lot of brands in the space, especially in the beauty space, have gone a step further and decided to foot the bill for the entire waste stream. So all  beauty products are recyclable through the Garnier program, for example, or all beauty product-related waste, rather, all recyclable through the Garnier program. So you have some standup brands like that deciding to go above and beyond. And then, you know, a bunch of other smaller brands, they work within their budgetary means and they give us a solution for their specific product.

JAIME: In tackling the issue of waste, TerraCycle is obviously working on the end consumer and at the end of the process where we would normally be either throwing it out into the trash, or maybe we’d try to recycle it locally. What does Terra cycle do to attack this problem from the packaging perspective?

ALEX: Awesome. We’ve had partnerships in the past with Herbal Essences, and also  P&G’s Head and Shoulders, to actually take their normal plastic packaging and partially make it out of plastics collected from oceans, so ocean-bound plastic, literally taking this plastic out of the environment and putting it into the bottle, actually physically running beach cleanups, taking the plastic directly from the beach, and sending that to a facility, and then making a Head and Shoulders or a Herbal Essences bottle out of that reclaimed plastic. One of our newest business units is called Loop and best way to explain it, it’s essentially an e-commerce platform like an Amazon married with the concept of a milkman back in the day who would bring milk in glass jars to your doorstep every week, and then take the empties back to be cleaned, and then refilled with more milk to be delivered to other folks. It’s the same idea, but essentially with everything you can purchase in like a bodega or like a shopping market. So it really runs the gamut, stuff from oatmeal, to cleaning products, to now we actually, and this is why I wanted to mention it to you guys specifically, we just signed Ulta as a partner. So now people can get their beauty products, rather, shipped to them in reusable packaging that’s cleaned, and reused after you’re done with it. So as the name suggests, it’s a closed loop system. There’s virtually no waste. Everything that is used to the platform is cleaned, refilled, or recycled so that way the whole thing is self-sufficient and really eliminates a lot of the packaging waste that we wonder about what to do with on a daily basis. Is it recyclable? Do I have to landfill it? Don’t have to think about that anymore.  When you’re done with an item, throw it back in the reusable tote that comes with your Loop order, and then it gets picked up by UPS, cleaned, and then somebody else could enjoy it down the line.

ASHLEY: That’s outstanding because I think now as we’re starting to be more globally aware, ocean plastic has been very much at the forefront of what we hear about. So that’s outstanding. I’d love to know what happens from collection to the end point for a specific let’s say a haircare brand like Schwarzkopf or Amika. What does that look like? So you’re in your salon and you see this bin, where does it go from there and what’s the process?

ALEX: Yeah. Awesome question. A lot of people are really interested in some of the nitty gritty details. I know I was right as I started out. Actually when I started out at TerraCycle as an intern and one of the first things they do is they walk you through recycling facilities and it’s really cool to see just the massive, massive amount of material, and it all in bales, and it is actually a really cool and interesting process. It’s out of sight out of mind, but I guess to kind of set the stage a bit, the main problem with conventional recyclers trying to recycle beauty-related waste, it really gets down to like simple processing issues. So when you’re thinking about, hey, is this piece of beauty packaging, shampoo bottle, what have you, is it recyclable in my blue bin? So the best rule of thumb to follow is the more complex the packaging, the less likely it actually is to be recycled. Packaging that is like twistable or squeezable, that’s almost always not recyclable in your blue bin. And some other things to keep in mind is like small items, like lids caps, compact cases, they often fall through machinery. So always rinse out your beauty packaging of excess product, and then replace the cap, and then throw it in your blue bin. But you know, that’s only if it’s curbside recyclable. As a sidebar, most municipal programs in the United States only collect plastics ones and twos. Everything outside of that, three, fours, and fives, and so on, usually are not recyclable, but always check first with your local city government to make sure that that sort of thing is  collected through your program. Because like I mentioned before, conventional recycling is really on its heels at this point, and a lot of local programs are being either  shut down completely, or are restricting collections somehow. So back to the question in terms of what TerraCycle does when we receive beauty-related waste through one of our programs, we first consolidate it into large volumes before it’s shredded and then sorted by material type. So from there, the plastics are extruded and pelletized. And when I say pelletize, that means exactly what it sounds like. They’re basically formed into a small plastic pellet that’s then melted and then remolded to form a new plastic products. Beauty packaging can be complex in terms of the amount of materials that go into it. So metals, for instance, are separated using a system of magnets and then they’re smelted for use in stamped product applications, like nuts, bolts, washers, rings, that sort of thing. And the glass is cleaned and then sorted by color for processing. Then it’s crushed and melted to be used in new glass products or other applications. And glass is one of the really cool things because it’s actually infinitely recyclable and it’s always one of the favorite types of material to get if you’re a local recycler because it’s just so versatile and it doesn’t lose a lot of the properties that we want like the ability to be translucent or retain a certain color. It’s super versatile in the way that it’s pretty much infinitely recyclable.

JAIME: Before I jump in with a list of product that I produce in my trash that is not typical, I want to say that the only glass I happen to recycle or even use in my salon are polish bottles, but we know that contains hazardous chemicals. Does TerraCycle handle hazardous waste?

ALEX: We actually, in terms of hazardous waste, we do not. But in terms of regulated waste, we actually have a whole division dedicated to that sort of thing. And like when I say regulated waste, I’m talking stuff like fluorescent light bulbs. They contain mercury so the disposal is regulated in a lot of states. We have this business unit TerraCycle Regulated Waste that’s made to recycle that sort of thing. But in terms of things like hazardous waste, yeah, we get that question a lot. We don’t collect that sort of thing.

ASHLEY: Unfortunately, at the onset of the coronavirus pandemic, it seems like recyclability and eco-friendliness went out the window when it came to things like PPE, and gloves, and the use of disposables really ratcheted up especially in salons. Is PPE or some of these other things that we would just throw in the trash without thinking about it actually recyclable through TerraCycle?

ALEX: Yeah, that’s the question we’ve been getting a lot lately, as you can imagine.  PPE, you know, your single-use masks, gloves, they are not recyclable. Do not throw those in your blue bin no matter where you are in the United States. However, TerraCycle has a lot of solutions in place to recycle that sort of thing. So we do that mainly through two business units, our Zero Waste Box business unit which is essentially the same as our free recycling programs and TerraCycle Regulated Waste that I mentioned a second ago. But the only difference is that it’s a paid solution because there’s not a brand funding it. I’m not really aware of any major brands that makes face masks or gloves, but if we had one of those sign-on as a partner, then we could implement a free recycling solution for something like that. But since we don’t have a brand partner at the moment, these are paid solutions now. So we have the Zero Waste Box that collects  personal protective equipment, so your gloves, your masks, protective garments, that sort of thing. And we also, like I mentioned with TerraCycle Regulated Waste before we also have, and we just launched this back in July, I believe. They’re called EasyPak boxes, essentially the same idea as Zero Waste Boxes, but these are more a B2B-type deal. So the EasyPak boxes are essentially the same as a Zero Waste Box with the only difference being they’re actually available for purchase on a subscription-based timetable. So when you fill one up and you send it back, it automatically requests a new one to be sent to you. So in that way, there’s no gaps between your recycling program. Pretty much all businesses are able to operate now because their staff and customers are wearing face masks, and gloves, and all that sort of thing. So we really set out to make a solution as turnkey, as easy as possible, for a busy salon owner to implement, and buy it once, and then let it exist in the back of their head, and be confident that there’s always going to be a solution there.

ASHLEY: Are you listening 3M? We’re looking for a mask partner, right? I think that that would be, I mean, just what a huge PR bump, but that’s really interesting that even though there isn’t a corporate partner for a specific product, there are still ways around that through your process.

ALEX: Yeah, absolutely. That’s really what our CEO, Tom Szaky, that was his vision when he started TerraCycle, that even if we don’t have a brand partner at the moment,  but make a paid solution because our whole business it gets back to eliminating the very idea of waste. So once we show people that, hey, these things aren’t recyclable in your blue bin, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re not recyclable in general. Waste is really just a concept that exists in our heads, because that’s governed by what’s actually economically viable to recycle, but through all the cool programs we have, we really try to show people that material at the end of the day is material and raw material is worth something. So therefore, your waste is worth something. It just needs to be  converted and elevated to a certain point to make it actually usable.

JAIME: I’ve already created my own TerraCycle account, and I have put in my cart the box for gloves, and I will be adding one for collecting masks to start with.

ALEX: That’s great. I do participate in a few myself, the ones for flexible,snack packaging as somebody who is like into fitness, and eats a lot of protein bars and stuff like that. You can imagine like that stuff piles up quickly, and you know if I’m having like one or two a day, and now especially at home during quarantine, I just see my garbage can fill up in a couple weeks. It, it really hits home, no pun intended, when you’re kind of just at home producing all this waste and you don’t have the office garbage can or the garbage can at the gym to throw it in. And it’s all in your face and when it’s out of sight, out of mind, that’s where we’d like waste to be generally. But I think now everybody at home just producing all this waste is helping people wake up to how much stuff they really go through in a single day even.

JAIME: Reflecting on the reality of a salon setting, am I to understand that TerraCycle can actually accept human hair?

ALEX: Yes. That’s exactly true. That’s a favorite one of mine. I love telling people about that cause that’s, like I said before, everything is recyclable. Our whole thing is to eliminate the idea of waste. So human hair that’s a fun one because technically that’s not recycled. That’s composted. A lot of our recycling solutions since we deal with such complex objects, they have to be separated because a lot of the time they have inorganic and also organic material in the mix. For example, like organics would be like  paper, cardboard, stuff like that, human hair. So that sort of thing is composted in an industrial facility and then the compost is then used as fertilizer in things like highway medians, or golf courses, or like to fertilize big trees. Rest assured, the compost is not used to fertilize food. It’s only used in big industrial applications, that sort of thing.

ASHLEY: So does that get put into a separate receptacle? I would assume that’s something that can’t really be mixed in with aerosol bottles. Am I incorrect there? 

ALEX: No, that’s perfectly correct. Yeah, the human hair, there’s a Zero Waste Box that we have for that, and like I mentioned, that’s a paid solution. So you’d literally just be getting up essentially a box that you just, but all the human hair into after you sweep it up or vacuum it up.

ASHLEY: A hair box. Okay. Good to know. 

ALEX: Exactly, exactly.

JAIME: I can envision in my salon having one of these boxes for each of the different types of wastes that TerraCycle can manage. So I’d have the box that was ready for gloves. I’d have one for disposable masks. Let me go through some of the other things that I produce in my salon. We’ve already talked about hair being an option, but I also produce waste in the form of plastic bags, birchwood sticks, or if I were someone who was waxing, I’d be using wooden sticks to do waxing, nail files, non-woven sponges, patient bibs, which are the plastic on one side and the paper on the other that you might recall from going to the dentist, what happens to that kind of waste? Does that go into separate boxes or just one box?

ALEX: Cool. So we have a few solutions in place for that sort of thing. So I’ll just walk you through a couple of them. First, we have our beauty products and packaging Zero Waste Box and then we have our personal care accessories Zero Waste Box. So those two things might sound a bit similar. So the main difference is the personal care accessories box accepts things more like e-waste material, kind of like used hairdryers,  curling irons, that sort of thing. And then the beauty products and packaging box, as the name suggests, it’s more of a catchall. So it really runs the gamut and it’s a lot of the things you just mentioned.

ASHLEY: Let’s say one of our listeners is interested in starting a relationship with TerraCycle whether they use the brands that you mentioned or they’re looking for a more zero waste option. What does the implementation process look like for the average salon?

ALEX: It cannot be easier. It’s essentially, if you’re a Zero Waste Box customer, it’s a one-time deal really. You buy one box for one set fee. The shipping is included in the price. It’s just like buying a package on Amazon. It’s shipped to your door. It’s ready to go essentially. You just assemble it. Put it in your corner. Once it’s full of the accepted waste stream, you package it up, slap the prepaid shipping label on there, and send it back. It really couldn’t be easier in that way. And then in terms of more B2B solutions

I mentioned before through TerraCycle Regulated wastes EasyPak program, we collect things like aerosols and also personal protective equipment, gloves, masks. And the cool thing about that, like I said, is you can get it on a subscription-based timetable. So  you set it up and then once it’s full, you ship it off and then it automatically sends a new one to your doorstep. So there’s no gap in not having a receptacle and these things are really made to be as user-friendly and easy as possible. We really went into this knowing that most people don’t want to think about this stuff all the time. They kind of want it to be out of sight, out of mind. They don’t want to make it a part of their day to have to, you know, figure this sort of thing out. They just do it once and they just forget about it.

ASHLEY: So to piggyback off of the question about how to get started, let’s say that you are not the owner of the salon, but you work in a salon where you see this could be a great solution. Do you have any tips for salon professionals to approach owners about participating, like some great features and benefits that would help them get on the side of recycling?

 
ALEX: A lot of the time when I approach the question of recycling, like, should I do it?  You really have to think this is more of like a psychic income sort of thing. It’s not really something you’re, you’re going to see unless you’re, you know, recycling through a free recycling program and you actually get points for your favorite nonprofit or school. That’s kind of like a tangible reward. It’s really something that it’s peace of mind really. When you throw a glove or a mask in one of our receptacles, you can be rest assured that it’s not going to be landfilled, and it’s going to be recycled or composted  responsibly, and then it’s going to have a second life as another object in the near future. Our landfills are exploding in volume, and then even if something is landfilled or, you know, it’s ostensibly landfilled, that’s no guarantee it’s gonna one make it to the landfill or stay in the landfill. God, I think there was one specific statistic I came across in my research specifically about PPE. Yeah. So one specific study said we’re at risk of having more disposable masks than jellyfish in the Mediterranean. And then, you know, that’s just one example, it’s.

ASHLEY: Wow.

ALEX: Yeah and that’s just in such a short period of time. It kind of boggles the mind. But I mean when you think of just the amount of masks or gloves that like your beauty salon goes through in a single week, multiply that by all the beauty salons in your town, in your state, all of them in your country, all of them in the world, and that’s just one industry. So when you kind of think about it like that, and take a step back and think, everyone is using this sort of thing, like all of these luxuries that afford us to live the life we were living before COVID, they’re seriously impacting the natural world. And if solutions don’t exist, or if people don’t start taking this more seriously, we’re gonna face some pretty serious repercussions like within our lifetime. So there was one study done by Plastic Oceans that predicts that more plastic by weight than fish will be in the ocean by 2050. I think that alone is just such a sobering statistic, that the whole ocean, every ocean on earth. Addiction to single-use products can have irreparable damage on the natural world we really take for granted.

JAIME: That TerraCycle makes this process more convenient for us, even though there may be some cost involved, there’s a lot of opportunity here to involve,not only our co-workers in the salon space, but our clients. If we could serve as a collection point for some of these products that otherwise would end up in the landfill, I could see this as being something that clients would feel really good about participating in and may be willing to spend the extra money or maybe even sponsor it within your own salon knowing that they’re not just throwing their gloves and masks out.

ALEX: Absolutely. It really is about getting the word out there. When you’re exposed to the breadth of just destruction that has already been done and our impact on the natural world that we’re really never going to be able to fix, it’s seriously sobering and you start to think more about just in terms of your daily life. After you’re done with lunch, like all this waste you have now, what are you going to do with it? Where is it going to go? Is it going to end up in, God forbid ,a fish’s stomach, or is it going to be suffocating a sea turtle, or something like that? That sort of thing hits home and all of the, you know, creature comforts and luxuries that plastics has afforded us just within the past 60, 70 years has already affected this world in such a sobering and incredible way.

ASHLEY: Definitely something to think about. Every time I throw a glove away, I picture it in a landfill and this is such a great solution that I’m excited to learn more about for my own personal use. But before we started recording today, you had mentioned there was something new coming down the pipeline that might be interesting to our listeners, so can you share that with us?

ALEX: Absolutely. So I am so excited to kind of tease this a bit for you guys cause this is exclusive news. I got special permission to talk about it a bit today. We haven’t  shared this anywhere else, and it’s still kind of in its beginning stages, still getting on its legs, but we’ve gotten great feedback and things are moving along quite quickly now. So  I thought this would be a good time to kind of give a teaser. We’re working on a service that’s specifically designed for salons and beauty professionals. And we’ve been testing it with a big partner in that space. When I say like a big partner, definitely a household name, definitely like a trendsetter in the industry, if you will, so can’t share too much about this right now, but, yeah. Please look out for announcements and an eventual launch because I think this is especially something, I mean this is tailored exactly to  your listeners and I really think it’s something they would appreciate and have a positive experience implementing.

ASHLEY: Well, that is very tantalizing. I can’t wait to hear more about that. So if we want to connect with TerraCycle to be able to be among the first to hear this exciting announcement, how can we connect with you and engage with TerraCycle online?

ALEX: Great question. So we’re across pretty much every social media platform as TerraCycle. We’re on Twitter. We’re on Instagram. We’re on Facebook, on also LinkedIn, all under the handle TerraCycle.

ASHLEY: Fabulous. Well, I have a lot to think about, I know, Jaime, we’ve got the wheels turning in the background and how we can potentially help facilitate some of these partnerships between salons and TerraCycle. And I think this is something that’s really exciting and much needed for our industry.

JAIME: I’m not going to wait for the announcement. I’m going to go ahead and order my glove and mask box in advance.

ALEX: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It won’t impact that at all. That’s a, that’s still definitely a great choice. One more thing, just because I think it’s such a great program and I just want it to give it a really quick plug if I may, is actually in October of 2020, we’ve recently launched a partnership called Beautycycle with Nordstrom. So our Zero Waste Boxes are in participating Nordstrom stores across the country and it’s super easy for people to get involved. All they have to do is bring in any brand of beauty-related waste for free recycling. So any brand, doesn’t have to be bought at a Nordstrom or from Nordstrom online, anything at all and this is a very broad range of things. You could bring in things like pump caps, hairspray triggers, lipstick cases, eyeliner pencils, mascara tubes. Your next shopping trip, bring that all in and just drop it off, could not be more simple. 

ASHLEY: Very cool. Thanks for that end note there because that is very important to communicate and I know that especially for just our personal beauty waste as beauty professionals, we have a lot of it. We love to have products, and collect products, and just have entirely too much. Well, thank you so much, Alex, for your time today, and sharing this very important mission, and what you’re doing to help bring us back from the brink. We really appreciate your time.

ALEX: Yeah, thank you guys so much. It’s been such a great experience. I really appreciate it.

JAIME: If you’re enjoying Outgrowth, leave a review on Apple podcasts with one click.  Just visit bit.ly/outgrowthpodcast.

ASHLEY: As always. you can follow us and comment on recent episodes on Instagram at @outgrowthpodcast. Until next week, be smart.

JAIME: Be safe.

ASHLEY: Be sustainable. 

JAIME: Bye.