JAIME: Before we get started, we want to announce that we’re the featured educators in a virtual learning event. A Slice of Pro Beauty scheduled for Sunday, October 11th and Monday, October 12th is open to all license types.

ASHLEY: And if you’re a cosmetologist or nail technician in Illinois, you’ll be able to satisfy eight hours of your CE requirement. Bonus! Visit outgrowthpodcast.com/slice for more info and to register. Seats are limited. Now on with the show. Welcome to Outgrowth: A Slice of Pro Beauty with your hosts Ashley Gregory.

JAIME: And Jaime Schrabeck. Last week’s topic was so big that we need two episodes to cover it.

ASHLEY: We’re pleased to welcome back CPA Desarie Anderson for more in depth discussion in part two. Let’s grow together.    

ASHLEY: The threat of an audit may not seem realistic for some in our industry, but in the beauty industry, what red flags most often trigger an audit? 

DESARIE: The particular type of audit that I find salon owners have to deal with more so than anything are payroll audits. And payroll audits are based on the fact that we misclassify our workers and you guys know being beauty professionals and myself knowing, cause I used to be a beauty professional both as an owner and as a booth renter, and I did it. I misclassified my workers when I was a salon owner. But a lot of times what happens is either the state, or the IRS, or possibly Department of Labor, because you can get audited from your states. You can get audited from the IRS. I’m talking about payroll audits now. You can get audited from some insurance companies who have something to do with payroll can audit you. And also the Department of Labor can audit you. So they’re like four different entities that can audit you for payroll purposes or for misclassification purposes. So the two major things that I find that cause this type of audit is number one, you have a worker working in the salon and you’ve been paying her as a contractor. So you just pay her 50% of what comes in, or 45%, or whatever the split is. Now you’re not taking out any taxes. So this particular individual now really is a business owner. Now even though when they walk in to work every day, the assumption is that I’m going to work and I work for so and so. I work for Hair Designs. That’s my job. I go there everyday and I go to work. Well the fact that you are paying them as a contractor, really, they are now business owners. Because when they file their tax return, they are going to file a 1040 and a 1040 schedule C. A 1040 schedule C notates that you are a business owner. And as a business owner, you have to pay self-employment tax. So what happens is because no tax was taken out, when they file their tax return, in addition to paying income tax, they’re also having to pay self-employment tax, which usually is more than income tax. And they start to scream, wait a minute now. How does this work? I’m a 50/50 split. I made a thousand dollars. I got 500 and now I’m being taxed almost $200 on that three, which now leaves me with 300? Now think about that for an entire year. If that happened for an entire year, and you file your taxes, and you say, well, how can I owe all this money? Then usually depending upon the accountant that you’re dealing with, they’ll ask you the question, okay, well, tell me a little bit about where you work? How everything works there, how you get paid. And if the accountant determines that you were misclassified and you should have been an employee and not a 1099 contractor, then that’s a whole can of worms that opens up because then we will have to file a particular form requesting that you, the contractor, only pays half of your self-employment tax. And then we need to go after the salon for the other half, because really this person should have been an employee. That can trigger a payroll audit. Once a payroll audit is triggered by the IRS, the state gets it. Once a state gets it, the DOL, Department of Labor may also get that audit. So now you’ll be audited by three different people. And it can get extremely expensive if you misclassify and you can’t classify based upon what you think. Oh, well, here’s what I think because they come in and I don’t tell them what to do or how to dress therefore they’re contractors. Uh-uh. There is a specified list that the IRS and the state go by to determine whether or not you are a contractor or if you are a employee. And I can tell you, one of the most important things is who controls the money. So no matter what other liberties that you give to your worker, you cannot say she’s a contractor because you control the money. You collect the money and at the end of the month, week, whatever you write them a check, That in and of itself is automatic employee. So you can get audited under those circumstances possibly. The second thing is the same person goes to work every day. They wake up and they go to work. As far as they’re concerned, they work for Hair Designs. For some reason, they lose their job, whatever the case may be, like with this whole pandemic thing, I saw a lot of it. But what happens is they lose their job and they go apply for unemployment. Now, outside of the pandemic where independent contractors and business owners can apply for unemployment, prior to that we couldn’t do that because there was no pandemic. So you lose your job and you go try to apply for unemployment. And one of the things they want to find out is, okay, who do you work for? When they check the system, they’re going to see that nothing has been paid in for you as an employee. Therefore, you can’t receive anything. And normally that’s another, I would say, trigger that will cause the state to audit you. And then once the state gets it, of course, they pass it on to the IRS in a lot of instances. And then of course, they pass that on to the Department of Labor.

JAIME: There’s no doubt as beauty pros are filing for unemployment, many of whom would not have been qualified to do so before because they were independent, the states are collecting data on individuals they wouldn’t have information on otherwise. And we’ve heard that the IRS is sending letters to salon owners requiring documentation of the employment status of staff. What kind of information can we provide as proof?

DESARIE: Well, okay. So if they’re an employee, clearly, you would have some sort of payroll service like Gusto, ADP, or possibly QuickBooks payroll. All you would have to do is either send them a report. So what type of report just depends. Like I have a lot of my clients, I put them on Gusto. If they wanted something to prove that their workers are employees, I would probably send them information, certain forms that I created and uploaded to Gusto. I would probably go in there and pull their paychecks from prior periods. In other words, if the IRS does not specify what they want, then I’m going to say, okay, I’m going to send you prior pay period pay stubs. I’m also going to send you the W4 that was filled out. I’m going to also send the I9, certain documents that you are required to complete when you have an employee. The employee has to fill out certain documents. Those documents are proof, but that’s not enough. That coupled with the latest paychecks. When you look at those two forms or those two documents together, it will tell you that, okay, so this person filled out the necessary forms, as all employees would. Check that box. This person got paid the last six months as an employee through Gusto or through ADP. You check that box. To me, that’s enough information, so I would probably start there. Of course, once that’s sent to the IRS, or to the state, or whoever wants to see it, they will let me know or let you know whether or not the documentation is sufficient. If it’s sufficient, nothing else to do. If it’s not sufficient, then they have to specify what it is that they’re looking for.

JAIME: With all this focus on proper classification, what do you recommend to salon owners who realize that they may have been misclassifying staff for years and now want to rectify that situation?

DESARIE: I recommend that they just go in and do it. They just reclassify them. So in other words, if you’ve had contractors you’ve been paying for years, and you’ve decided that you want to now properly classify them, you want to contact an accountant to help you go through that. It’s not something you want to do on your own. I have some clients that have had that issue. Well, what I did was when I took them on, I went ahead and I set up their payroll accounts with Gusto. Once I set up their payroll accounts, they just started paying them as employees. And that’s really all you can do. Ultimately speaking, if you do it correctly, what you’re supposed to do is you’re supposed to reach back to, I would say, about three years cause normally the IRS, they normally only look at three years worth of data unless there is a reason to go further back. If there’s fraud involved or certain other things, they’ll go back further than three years or if they have other reasons that go back further and further than three years. But usually the ideal thing to do would be to go back at three years, and turn everything around, and turn it into payroll. But you have to pay all of these payroll taxes and then you also have to pay all of these penalties. That would be the ideal, correct way of doing things. However, that can get extremely expensive and it can literally put you out of business if you don’t have a whole lot of cash flow. So really, if you made a mistake and you’re like, oh wow, I made a mistake. I need to correct this. I would just say correct it moving forward. And if the IRS feels, or the IRS or the states, or the Department of Labor, if they feel the need to drag you in and say, what about the last three years? Then address it at that time, but I wouldn’t necessarily say, oh, okay. Well, yeah, it’s just sit here and address it right now because that’s a lot involved. You’re going to owe a lot of money and then for anyone to do that, for example, for me to do that for me to go in and convert all of your payments that you made to employees or workers, contractors. If I was to convert all that  for the last three years, it’s going to cost you a lot of money for me to do it. In addition to that, you’re paying all the interest and penalties on top of everything else that you were supposed to have paid. So I would just say, start from now moving forward and then just let the chips fall where they may.

ASHLEY: When you found out that you were misclassifying your own employees, when you owned a salon or worked in a salon, what was your process like? Was it very similar? Because what I’m worried about as a potential salon owner who’s misclassifying is I have a disgruntled employee, someone who is motivated now that they didn’t qualify for unemployment insurance payments and now wants to bring the Department of Labor and the IRS in to find out that my salon has been misclassifying for the past 15 years. And I now have to take on that employment tax liability to the tune of several hundreds of thousands of dollars. So if there’s anyone listening to this right now and wants to know, oh no, what do I do? I know there’s people that are probably going to be shady, and then just close up shop, and reopen under a different business entity, or however, but what does that process really look like in the real world?

DESARIE: Well, I mean, so you’re asking if a disgruntled employee, or if in some other way the IRS or state discover that you have been misclassifying your employees, how will the IRS and state handle it and how should you in turn move forward?

ASHLEY: Agreed. Yeah. So knowing that if they’re only going back in general three years and they don’t happen to see it because you just don’t rate as a business that brings in enough revenue, or you have someone who really should have been classified as an employee and decides, you know what, I’ve learned now, what the classification should be and wants to kind of have your come to Jesus moment. What does that look like for a salon owner that knows that they’re doing it incorrectly and needs to change, but the IRS and the Department of Labor have become aware of it?

DESARIE: Well, okay, so the three year thing is, like I wouldn’t definitely hang my hat on that because sometimes it depends upon who you get. When I used to work as an auditor, I would ask my boss, well, how far back should I go? And he would say, well, you know, I’ll leave it up to your judgment because a lot of this stuff can be based upon judgment. I mean, you, you do have what’s in the code and what the code says, but then there are so many different variables to that, you know, so especially when you’re dealing with payroll taxes. Now the only thing that is somewhat of a savior is that you didn’t have employees who were paying into payroll, but you just did not fork over the money. You didn’t remit the money to the state, basically. So if that’s not your case, cause that’s when the hammer comes down. If that’s the situation with you, that’s where the hammer comes down. But, in most cases, with our industry, that’s not usually the case. Our industry is the fact that we just misclassified and we just weren’t collecting anything when we should have been, nor were we paying our portion of payroll taxes. So in all actuality, if a salon is going through that and the IRS is now aware, you can either wait for them to come to you, which they may or they may not. It just depends. Or if you know they’re aware, you also, and even if you don’t know they’re aware, if you just know that these workers are supposed to be classified as employees, just make the change. Make the change starting September 1st cause we’re in September now, or let’s say you decide to make the change. You’ve already paid them for the first week in September. Make the change moving forward and you want to consult with an accountant. You want to consult with them cause everybody’s case is different. You want to consult with an accountant and let them help you achieve whatever it is you’re trying to achieve. Now, keeping in mind that the advice that I give you can be completely different from the advice that another accountant gives you. It doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m wrong or that accountant is wrong. It’s just that we have different perspectives. We have different risk tolerance levels. Okay. It could be that they have gone through it and their experience with what happened to their client was different from the experience that I had with my client. And the difference was based on the fact that we both had different auditors because different auditors, you may get different results. It just depends. When you speak with an accountant, or if you are trying to pick an accountant and you’re interviewing, you want to make sure that you’re comfortable with whoever you choose. You want to make sure you’re comfortable with the direction in which they’re going to send you. Now, for me, I have very, very low risk tolerance. Because I have low risk tolerance, I’m going to always try to make sure that you don’t cut corners. But at the same time, I’m also realistic and I understand that we go back 15 years, you might as well just shut down. I mean, there’s really no point continuing on. Not only that, I’ve worked on both sides. So I’ve seen it from the auditor’s side and I’ve seen it from the representative side where I’m representing clients. And as an auditor, I had a lot of leeway to make decisions. Yes, I had a boss, but they gave us a lot of leeway because they understood that we are the ones that are digging into the paperwork. We are the ones that are seeing and looking to see what’s going on. Therefore, we do have a framework that we are required to follow, but we can also pivot in certain places depending upon what we’re looking at in terms of the taxpayer’s data and information. So really my advice is just to look at where you are right now. Make a decision. Okay, it’s time. I think I want to go ahead, and correct my classification for my workers, and then just do it.

JAIME: Desarie, for salons with employees, the option to defer payroll taxes might seem like financial relief, but would this be advisable and what happens if an employee leaves?

DESARIE: Well, you know, I haven’t really read that bill, to be honest with you. I know it finally came out a couple of days ago where you can defer payroll taxes. I haven’t dug into it, but here’s what I can tell you. The fact that they’re deferring it means that you’re going to have to pay it eventually. So the relief you’re getting is going to be instant. It’s short term and I think they’re deferring it til January, I do believe. They’re deferring it through January of 2021. That could possibly change. But that means that while you are receiving a little bit more in your paycheck between September and December, you’re going to receive less in January because everything that was deferred is now going to start coming out in January. So on a short-term basis, if you, if you think short term and quite frank with you, it’s not a whole lot of money. You know, it could be what, a couple of hundred dollars? But is it really worth you saying, okay, I’m making a couple of hundred dollars more now, but come January, they’re going to now take out twice the amount as an employee. Yes, it’s being deferred, however, you’re going to have to pay it in January. So you have to ask yourself the question, if I get that extra money now, is there a purpose for that? Or do I just want to have extra money and spend it on frivolous items? And then now come January, I’m making less money. So now I have less money to pay my bills, and how is that going to affect me? So if it doesn’t affect me either way, if I can afford to get more in my paycheck now and still afford to pay my bills in January once I start making less money, then you know, the decision is yours. You have to decide what’s best for you. But if you think that the money you’re making, you’re already on the borderline of barely pay my bills. And then you think that because you’re on that borderline of I can barely pay my bills, you’re going to go ahead and accept the deferment so that way you have a little extra money. Think about in January when they start taking out twice as much, or taking out more. Now it’s a matter of not barely pay my bills, I can’t pay my bills cause I’ve taken out less money. So that’s a personal decision, but you have to really think about it before. Don’t just say, oh yeah, great. More money. Where do I sign? Think about it before you make the decision on how it’s going to affect you once the deferment ends and it’s time for you to start paying that money back.

JAIME: One of the analysis I read about it was that if the employer opts to do this and the employee leaves between now and when that money would be clawed back from the employee,  that the employer would be on the hook.

DESARIE: I don’t know. To be honest with you, I have not read that deep. I haven’t read the bill to even understand. And the reason why I didn’t read it, I’ll be honest with you, I got so exhausted during the whole COVID, PPP, EIDL. And I tell you, it changed so much. Like I would read it, I would create a video about it. I’ll post about it, and then in about another two seconds, something changed. So I was constantly pivoting back and forth between what was and what now is, and it was quite exhausting actually. I got whiplash from doing that. So when this bill came out, I said, okay, going to read it, but let me just give myself a moment. And then eventually I’m going to sort of dig into it just to see, how is it going to affect my salon owners? How’s it going to affect my customers who have employees? That’s what I’m looking for. Not that I don’t care about the W2 employees, but with the W2 employees, it is cut and dry, usually. Whereas when it comes to a business, there’s always some sort of variation there, some sort of variable there that will either positively affect you or negatively affects you. Now, the reason why what you said, I’m not saying I’m questioning it, but cause really what they’re doing is it’s a payroll tax deferment for Social Security and for Medicare. So in all actuality, if you’re getting that break, that is for your Social Security and Medicare. The business owner already pays their share. So Social Security and Medicare is 15.3%. So out of that 15.3%, the owner pays 7.65% and the W2 employee pays the other 7.65%. I don’t see how if the owner has paid their portion, I don’t see how the government can come back and grab that same portion from the owner on behalf of the employee. I don’t see how that would work. It doesn’t make sense to me. So I’d have to really read it to see exactly what that means.

JAIME: Yet under normal circumstances, if someone were to be misclassified, the burden of any sort of penalties would fall on the owner of the business, not on the person who was misclassified.

DESARIE: Oh, absolutely. So if a person was misclassified, any type of penalty is going to fall on the owner. Yes, because the owner is who’s the responsible party. Like if I go work for Coca Cola and Coca Cola says, oh, well, I’m paying you as a contractor. Okay. Well, that’s your policy. I’m not going to argue with you and say, oh no, no, pay me as an employee. That’s how you do things. And most workers, they don’t know. They just want to come to work and get paid. They have no idea about classification one way or another. So they are off the hook. Now, that said, of course, if you look at it from a perspective of, well, you were happy when you were getting all your money, right? Cause usually the only time that workers cry about the fact that they were classified as a contractor is when they realize that they have to pay a lot of money in taxes. Prior to that, they were happy that they were getting all their money. But when it turns sour, it’s like, oh no, that’s just not fair. You shouldn’t have done that. But if I had told you when you started working for me that I’m taking 65% of your money. You’re getting 45%. And on top of that, I’m going to be taking out taxes, you’d have looked at me like I was crazy, or you’d be complaining. You huddle up in the corner with all the other stylists complaining about God, I can’t believe I made a thousand dollars last month and I only got 450, and by the time they took our taxes, I was left with three something. It will be a constant whining situation going on within the salon. So owners get it from both sides. But I say you have to stand strong because if you don’t stand strong and you cower to the employees who are telling you, it’s just not fair. I’m not making enough money. Please don’t classify me as an employee. When it was all said and done, and when the you know what hits the fan, it comes back to you, you the employer. You’re the one that has to suffer the consequences of your decision and be burdened with all of those penalties and interest fees.

ASHLEY: Switching gears slightly, through the pandemic, obviously there’s been dire financial straits for a lot of our industry. In the case that a salon owner determines that closing their business would just be the best option, what actions would you advise for them? And what about their outstanding liabilities, like their lease or any outstanding gift cards that they’ve sold, etc.?

DESARIE: Well, okay. That’s a two prong question. Part of it is legal and part of it would be on the accounting side. So if they decide to shut their business down, well, I mean, if your business is not making any money, then you have no choice but to shut down. So in terms of what if you have liabilities? Well that’s something the person who you hold the liability with, that’s something that they have to take up. They may decide, and it could depend upon how your business is structured. It could depend on how your business is structured. Are you a sole proprietor? Are you a single-member LLC? Are you a partnership? Are you treated as an S corp or are you a C corp? That comes into play. Also, whatever you signed, what was the agreement? Did you, even if you are a partnership or if you are taxed or treated as an S corporation, when you signed the paperwork who guaranteed it? As a partnership, one person may have guaranteed the liability. That would mean that that’s the person that the company or the person you hold liability with can come after. In terms of gift cards that you sold, well, I mean, that is another thing. When a company shuts down, those gift cards are not good anymore because you’re no longer there. So the person that purchased the gift card loses out. Then it’s up to them to decide what they want to do. Do I want to sue this person? The business is no longer there. Well, if you’re a sole proprietor, they can sue you. As an LLC, they’ll try to sue the business and based upon whether or not you’ve pierced the corporate veil. If you have been doing things, running your business, the way you should have been as an LLC, when it comes to the financial side, when it comes to your banking, then you may or may not be part of the lawsuit if they sue you. It just depends. They’ll sue the business, and if the corporate veil has been pierced, then they may drag you into it. If you’re an S corporation, in that case, if a lot harder as an S corporation, you’re literally going to have to sue the business because you’re not really going to sue the shareholders. As a C corporation, same thing. You’re going to sue the business and not necessarily the shareholders. So that question has so many different prongs to it. It all depends on your business structure. It depends upon the lease agreement that you signed when it comes to your rent. That depends upon you and your landlord. What is the agreement? Is there some sort of settlement that you can come to? If there isn’t, he can sue you. So really it’s just a matter of finding out, okay. I’m about to shut down. This is who I owe, and I also have a lease that has not yet expired. So I need to go speak with all these people. I need to speak with my landlord. I need to speak with the people who I have a loan with and let them know what my plans are. And then see if I can come to some sort of an agreement with them. If I can’t, then I’m just going to shut down cause there’s nothing I can do. I can’t stay open. And then whatever they have to do, they have to do. They may sue me, but I have no control over what their actions are going to be. Now that said, when I had my first salon that I purchased back in, I think it was 2000, I owned it for a couple of years and it got really expensive cause I had an anchor that was right beside the salon which was at the time, I forget the name of the really big clothing store. A lot of the walk-ins came from there. And then when the walk-ins died down, you know, stylists, some, they just want to sit there and gather walk-ins. They may not necessarily want to go out and get their own clients. So when the walk-ins stopped coming in, I lost quite a few stylists and it got to a point where I wasn’t really able to pay my rent. So I decided, okay, before this gets really bad and before I run out of money, I need to talk to my landlord to let him know that I plan on shutting down. My lease isn’t up. So now, what? Well, we just came to an agreement and the agreement was I left my furniture. I left my furniture and walked away, and he did not try to sue me, nor did he try to get all the future lease that I should have paid. So under those circumstances, you want to speak to your accountant. You want to speak to an attorney possibly, and you want to speak to the people who you have the agreement with, and figure out a way to make it happen. Because the one thing that you know is going to happen is that you are shutting down. The question is, how do I handle everything else around that?

JAIME: As you said earlier, the numbers don’t lie. And while we certainly hope that people are able to survive this, we know that we’re going to be filing taxes regardless. That being said, how has tax planning been affected by the pandemic?

DESARIE: Well for people that actually plan, see tax planning normally happens prior to an event, whatever that event may be. So for the people who planned prior to COVID, they had to come back to the drawing board and adjust their plan, whatever that is. Like it’s hard to plan on the fly. Cause I know that sometimes people will say, okay, well, what can you do to reduce my taxes? Well, by the time you ask me that question, your taxes are already due. So you’re asking me in January of 2021, what I can do to help reduce your taxes for 2020. 2020 has come and gone. Everything that you did you’ve already done. So the only advice I can give you at that point is to advise you on what you can do now. And really one of the only things is to pay into a retirement, pay into a retirement account. Keep in mind that as you try to reduce how much you pay in taxes, like you can’t reduce how much you pay or less than how much you pay without using that money for something else. So yes, you can reduce your tax liability if you decide to pay into your retirement account. Let’s say this happens in 2021 and you’re trying to reduce your 2020 tax liability. You have to pay into a retirement account by no later than April 15th. You’re reducing your tax liability doesn’t mean you’re going to hold onto that money. You got to put that money somewhere. You got to put it somewhere and because you put it there, now you’re going to be able to reduce your liability because you have obliged the government. In other words, it’s a trade. We want you to have a retirement account because if you have a retirement account, that’s less money we have to give you when you retire. So please do us a favor and save money. And if you do that, here’s what we do for you. We’re going to reduce your tax liability. So it’s a trade off. So you’re helping them by putting money into your account. So then they’ll stop paying more than they would like to pay for you. And for you, you’re reducing your tax liability. However, you don’t see that money sitting in the bank and say, oh, my tax liability has been reduced. And by the way, here’s how much money I have left over because of that. No, that money has to go somewhere else. Just like if you want to reduce your tax liability by contributing to a charity. So when you contribute to a charity, that reduces your tax liability as well, but the money is still going from your hand into somebody else’s hand. But at the same time, it reduces your tax liability and it reduces it because once again, the government is saying, oh, you’re contributing to this charity. And because this charity exists, it prevents us from having to do the work or it prevents us from having to put government dollars into a particular program because we have this nonprofit who is doing it and collecting money to do it. So they’re saving us money. So if you contribute to this charity, we’re going to do you a favor and reduce your tax liability because you helped us out. You got to think about it from that point. When it comes to tax planning, it’s something that has to happen the year before. So anyone that did any kind of tax planning prior to COVID happening means that they had already done their tax planning, so they should have come back in and made some changes based upon COVID. Now what you can do, because of COVID, we were all put into a certain position financially. And it could have been an eye opener to some people to say, wow, okay, this really showed me how much money I don’t have available to me in case of an emergency. So now you can take the knowledge that you learned from COVID and apply it to your next tax planning session to say, now I need to plan a little bit differently. But you want to know, when you say tax planning, you want to know what is your goal? Everybody’s tax plan is going to look different based upon what their end goal is. That’s something that’s very, very personal and it’s not just general. Hope that makes sense.

ASHLEY: Well, thank you for giving us so much to think about and take action on. If you wouldn’t mind, please tell our listeners how they can learn more about you and your services.

DESARIE: I am all over the web and I actually just created a membership program because that can help each individual, whether it be an independent stylist or salon owner. And I’ve made it very, very affordable. So for anyone who is interested in looking to see exactly what it is that I offer as part of this membership program, you can go to financesforsalonprofessionals.com. If there’s anything that I hope that the listeners get out of this particular podcast is pay attention to the business entity type that you pick and pay attention to your books. Make sure you’re tracking your income and your expenses. Once you do those two things, everything else, I wouldn’t say is easy, but you will be able to face everything else with a whole lot less problems and with much more ease.

JAIME: Desarie, thanks so much for sharing all of your expertise with us today. We certainly have many topics to follow up on and we’ll be including your contact information in our show notes.

DESARIE: Great. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on and I had a really wonderful time. As you can tell, I’m passionate about it. I love the industry and I just really enjoy helping fellow industry professionals.  

ASHLEY: Of course. Well, thanks again. And if you’re interested in checking out the information that Desarie mentioned, please check the show notes and that’ll do it.

JAIME: If you learned anything on today’s episode of Outgrowth, please head to Apple podcasts and leave us a review. We may read your review on our next episode.

ASHLEY: As always, you can follow us and comment on recent episodes on Instagram at @outgrowthpodcast. Until next week.

JAIME: Be smart.

ASHLEY: Be safe.

JAIME: Bye.