JAIME: Welcome to Outgrowth: A Slice of Pro Beauty with your hosts Jaime Shrabeck.

ASHLEY: And Ashley Gregory Hackett. The year 2020 hasn’t turned out the way any of us expected, placing an incredible strain on our mental health.

JAIME: To discuss how we can cope with our sense of loss through these difficult times, we’re joined by special guest Joy Smith, co-founder of the Papillon Center for Loss and Transition. Let’s grow together.     

ASHLEY: Our normal topics revolve around compliance and industry news. But this is an episode unlike any we’ve done before.

JAIME: Ashley, we’ve timed this episode to coincide with planning for the holidays. But months ago, we might’ve assumed that our holiday routines would proceed as normal, and now we realize that they won’t, and that’s why I’m so grateful that we have as our guest today. Joy Smith. Welcome to Outgrowth, Joy.

JOY: Thank you. I’m glad to be here, Jaime and Ashley.

JAIME: Joy, please tell us a bit about your background. I know that you have training as a nurse, but what’s the journey that you took to bring you to the work that you do now?

JOY: Yeah, I am a nurse. I’m a registered nurse and my clinical specialty is oncology. So I’ve been caring for patients with cancer and their families for my entire adult career. My framework for being a nurse in this sort of specialty has always been around loss. My cancer patients experience loss at many levels, not just loss of life, but, you know, loss of health, loss of hair, loss of energy, loss of their future story as they thought it might be. And so my entire sort of professional philosophy as I provide care has been around supporting people in the various parts of their lives where they grieve. This has led me in the latter part of my professional life to do direct bereavement work. So I am part of an organization called Papillon Center for Loss and Transition and we actually provide direct bereavement services around the death of someone or something that a person cares about. So, for instance, we do adult grief programs. We do grief programs for children and teens. We also do a pet loss program. I’m in California and everybody here loves their four-legged friends and pet loss is a significant issue for our community. And the other area that we concentrate in that your clientele might also find some support around is the loss of a pregnancy or the loss of a baby at birth. I call these people the forgotten mourners,   because their loss is often not recognized and talked about or it’s dismissed. So that’s me in my own professional life and that’s what I do on an everyday basis.

ASHLEY: I love, Joy, that you speak about the losses that aren’t necessarily recognized, only because I feel like 2020 for most people just feels like a large loss that we’re all sort of grappling with, whether it is the death of a family member due to COVID, or the death or loss of our expectations for our personal lives and our plans for this year, all the way through to where we wanted our businesses to be at this point. And so my first question for you, cause I’m so excited to delve into this topic with you, is how can we work through some of this disappointment we feel when things aren’t turning out the way that we really expected, whether that be the loss of time with family or just that kind of overarching sadness that comes with that?

JOY: Yeah. I think it’s just really important to name what we’re all feeling. I mean we all are grieving and that word is often only reserved for when we are dealing with emotional consequences of the death of someone that we love, but certainly this pandemic and all the changes that everybody has experienced is all about grief. And so I think it’s helpful just to call a spade a spade and say, yeah, this is the emotional tenor of our nation right now and the world. And then once someone sort of, I think for me anyway, you name it, it then sort of can give a person a pathway for, you know, trundling through it. I think a lot of times, especially with this year, people just didn’t know what it was that they were experiencing. It was unfamiliar. It was definitely a lot of emotional distress, but they couldn’t really name it, you know? Oh, it’s COVID, or, oh, it’s this, or oh, it’s that. But it’s grief and hopefully that might be a starting place that if we name it, then there definitely are some very, very constructive ways and good tools for navigating this experience.

JAIME: Before you elaborate on those, would you say that calling it grief has been a hurdle because normally we do associate that only with death?

JOY: I think that’s one hurdle and it kind of goes even deeper than that. We are a culture that denies grief. I often say, we talk about it in our groups, that we live in a grief-illiterate society. And when you think about especially, you know, an industrialized nation like ours, I mean, I know growing up, what I was taught was how to gain things, how to get a better education, how to maybe make more money, how to climb the corporate ladder, how to be more successful, how to achieve. And I never got much conversation or guidance in what we do when we lose something and loss is inherent in our day-to-day life. But as Americans, particularly, we just don’t want to look there. We’ve not been programmed to acknowledge that this is a very normal human experience. And so as a result, I think we’re very unfamiliar with it, not only in what it’s about and how it transpires, but what to do. So, yeah, I do think that it is one big hurdle that this is something we as a society have very few words or tools to either discuss or navigate.

ASHLEY: So as a population and an industry that’s experiencing loss of income, loss of income security, just loss of time for professional development, and all of the things that have been compounded this year, what can we do? Because I 100% identify with your term grief illiteracy. It feels like when there is someone grieving, it’s like pat the back, say you’re sorry for them, send them a card, and just kind of live in your discomfort of not knowing what to do. And so if we are to take the term grief and remove it from only the association with death, what are some things that we can actually do to support each other as we all sort of make our way through this process?

JOY: Well, I think it can come in so many levels. I mean, in, at the individual level, the individual person in your industry, it is a lot about learning about this experience, learning what’s normal and not normal, learning about how a person can identify the emotional consequences of their loss, whether it’s a loss of their business, whatever it is. That the emotions of sadness, anger, frustration, confusion, to understand that these are normal components of this particular human condition, and then to begin to build some tools around it. And we can discuss those also, if you would like. But I think also as an industry, community is super important for people who are grieving. I think people who are grieving feel very isolated and very alone. And that’s a fact. I don’t think it. I know it. And definitely with COVID we’re all feeling more isolated and alone. So I think as an industry or as, you know, businesses that are connected by geography or through a podcast like this, I think to be in community to reach out to one another, to provide support, maybe for the particularly hard hit businesses, to let your colleagues know that as an organization you care. And maybe there’s a good idea for revamping a business plan that a person in California could share with someone in another part of the country. That would be more of a helpful suggestion, but there’s also many other ways that we can just show up for one another in any way that we can.

JAIME: Joy, you mentioned the emotions and I’m just curious about what’s considered normal and then not normal. What does grieving look like? Is it a process that we can best describe through like the stages model or does it vary for the individual?

JOY: Yeah, it varies. Actually the stages model, which was proposed by Elisabeth Kubler Ross, you know a number of years ago has largely, and even in her lifetime, has been really altered.  The thinking around that has altered. Grief is very non-linear. It doesn’t go step one, step two, step three, like a little recipe. It’s very nonlinear, which is also very unnerving when we want to have things orderly and know what’s next. In this particular situation, it’s usually very unorderly and oftentimes it’s sort of difficult to know what’s next. And as you said, Jaime, yes, it is individual. Everybody kind of does it their own way. There’s commonalities, but what we’re grieving is the loss of a relationship, and whether it’s with your business or a person, a lifestyle. We’re grieving the loss of that relationship, and if that relationship had great meaning to us, was very beloved, the response to that is going to be different than if we hadn’t invested as much in that relationship. So it is very individual, and again, this is where people in your industry who maybe will be dealing with other folks who are grieving, it’s just so helpful for folks in your profession to know that everybody’s going to do it different, and there is going to be no cookie-cutter approach to walking this path.

JAIME: I find that really interesting because the stages model being linear, I always thought it seemed almost achievement oriented, hearkening back to what you said earlier about we don’t have ways to really cope with loss because our society is achievement oriented and it just seems like it would make sense that we could value things and process this in different ways, but maybe it’s just first of all recognizing it in ourself first. So if we identify that what we are experiencing has this word grief that we can attach to it, then from there we can move forward. But moving forward, is going to look different for different people. That stages model does appeal to those of us who like to think linearly or think like circling back to something that they felt like they had already worked through was somehow a regression or an indication that things aren’t going the way they should.

JOY: Right. Yeah. Yeah, that can be very common. You know, people come into my group and they go, I think I should be farther along by now. Why am I in this stage of deep sadness? I, I’ve been there before. I thought I finished it. And, as human beings, we would like things to be orderly, but this is not. Grief is messy. And, I hear you, Jaime. I mean, people want to know, well, it’s been one year. I should be over it by now. But the fact is, I have to say that especially when it’s grief over something that is very much beloved, the grief just never goes away. I use this analogy. You know when people first are grieving, so maybe early in the pandemic or, soon after the death of someone, the grief is very heavy. I, I just imagine it as this backpack that is so loaded and it’s so difficult to carry. And people are so weary and fatigued of trying to carry it around and figure out what to do with it. But then as people do their work, and it’s called grief work because it is work, as they do their work, the knapsack or the backpack stays with them, but people really learn how to carry it with much more ease. Actually, people end up carrying it with a great deal of grace. And of course, what I look at and I will look at this post-COVID for with everybody, no matter what their loss is around, have they been able to find meaning in their experience? Because when we can find meaning from our grief and from our loss, then we have grown as human beings. And that is where we become more evolved as human beings when we can actually discern and actually name, people call it what, you can call it what you want, the silver lining. I don’t really like the word lesson, but that word is used sometimes. I do prefer the word meaning, you know, what, what has this experience meant to me and how am I going to manifest that in the life that I have to live?

ASHLEY: Wow. That was, I think, a big aha moment for both Jaime and I. We both just went, wow. So knowing what we know about grief, and how it manifests, and now calling it grief, the feeling that we’re experiencing over this shared year, what are some of the signs that we can then recognize in ourselves when we’re actually feeling grief and sadness that might spur us into recognizing it, calling it what it is, and seeking out some help or community?

JOY: Well, lots of times in the beginning, and I have felt this actually all through COVID, actually, it’s getting worse for me, is sort of a sense of confusion, and just feeling like I am on very sinking sand or uneven ground. So this sort of instability is part of the experience and whether it’s even the death of someone that you love, or the whole thing of a business, or this whole thing of this year, nothing feels normal. And so it can lend to just some sort of confusion or mental weariness, anxiety about the lack of predictability. And, and so that is sort of an underpinning, I think, of the grief experience, just this sort of being out of sync. People describe it differently, but, in essence, that’s kind of how I feel. People talk a lot in my groups about grief fog. This is a brain thing, grief fog. You know, my brain just doesn’t work. I can’t remember. I’m going into a room. I don’t know why I went there. I keep saying, is this real? It’s going to get over in just a minute, right? This can’t be real. And so some of this magical thinking that this really isn’t happening to me. It certainly can’t be happening to me. I’ve done everything right in my life. I’ve done everything right in my business that we had a great marriage, whatever it might be, this can’t be happening to me, ao the sense of sort of unrealness. Then as that sort of morphs into the reality that, oh God, this is it. This is the way it is. He’s not coming back, or my business will never be the same again, and so the reality becomes seated deeper and deeper into our day-to-day lives. The emotional responses, again, can be all around the board. And I think this is something that as human beings we don’t do very well, but we have the opportunity to sort of observe our emotions. Most of the time we react to them and we get involved in them. But what I have tried to learn and what I try to teach is, well, let’s just name it. What is it that we’re feeling? And some of the common things that grieving people feel are anger, which is totally legit. Sadness is another one. Fearfulness can happen. People can feel denial, which is a little bit, what I spoke about earlier. Denial is somewhat protective and we can engage in it for a while, but we can’t engage in it forever. So denial can be helpful, but maybe not so much long-term. And so what we try to do in my work is just to have people name what it is that they’re feeling. Sometimes you can also move into your body, you know, where am I feeling it in my body? Like, if I’m feeling sad, maybe I feel it behind my eyes like tears are gonna come soon. Or if I’m feeling angry, maybe I’m just feeling tense all over and my fists are all tight. But to sort of name the emotion and then to have some sort of constructive way about releasing it. Emotions are energy and they need to be released from our systems. And so if it is crying or wailing, people, you know, can, can be very, very profoundly sad. If it’s anger, to find a way to constructively release the anger. This is a little bit harder for folks cause sometimes we misplace our anger on our dog or our partner, somewhere else right where it doesn’t belong. And so we often teach constructive ways of expressing the anger so that that energy can be released. So when people can release their energy, then of the emotion that they’re feeling, oftentimes they will then feel much more centered and much more grounded. So we teach and we look for ways to not, to identify our emotions, name them, and then in our toolbox have a few strategies for expressing them. Many people who are grieving don’t want to go there. You hear the word, I don’t want to break down and I often say, well, shoot, I’m not a car. When you break down, you’ve got to go to the mechanic because there’s something wrong with you. If people cry, or have an emotional moment, or an expression of a deep-seated emotion around grief, that is normal. It’s nothing broken. It’s normal. My people that I work with, we don’t need to be fixed. We just need support and we need a good toolbox on how to take care of ourselves.

ASHLEY: Joy, when you mention the term grief fog, is that an actual physical symptom or a psychological state that someone experiences, and how does that affect their ability to cope?

JOY: Well, when I say grief fog, it’s really more of a mental phenomenon in terms of thinking processes, having trouble with higher executive function, having trouble multitasking, having trouble remembering, making decisions. That’s what I mean when I say grief fog. However, grief, just to go off your question, grief can be felt physically as well. People have told me that they feel physical pain when they’re grieving. So the way it affects the grieving process is that many people become frightened of it. They don’t understand it. They may think that, oh my gosh, there’s something yeah wrong with me now. I’m losing my mind. I’m going crazy. Or, uh oh, do I have an illness? Why, why is my body feeling like this? It doesn’t feel like my body used to feel. So many people become frightened and think that it’s not right and there’s something wrong with them. That’s where the beauty of talking to someone who understands this experience and can be so helpful because a person can learn that, you know, what they’re experiencing is normal and it will not always be this way.

JAIME: Joy, I have to ask does grieving differ according to the type of loss? Because I can imagine that there might be this continuum of simple, basic things that might just be temporary to more profound, permanent losses that we experience throughout our lifetimes.

JOY: Yeah, I think it is true. We each probably could name to ourselves what would be the most profound loss if we should experience it. It generally is the death of someone that we care about deeply. At least that would be for me, the loss of one of my kids or the loss of my grandkids, I think would be one of the worst things that I could imagine and it would change me forever. I would never ever be the same. But yet here during COVID we have, you know, daily losses that might impact us more temporarily. We’re a little bit of time or a little bit of assistance, or perhaps, I don’t know if this is what you’re thinking when the vaccine comes and we can kind of get back to normal, has more of a, maybe, an endpoint to it. So yeah, I think it, it does depend on who a person is grieving for or what they are grieving where it could be short-term or it could be lifelong.

JAIME: As a follow up to that, I will say that many of our colleagues wrap most of their identity around the role that they play in the industry. And even though they serve other roles as parents and caregivers, and maybe they have other work experiences or titles, it would seem that, and I would ask Ashley if you agree with me or not, that because our industry is based on relationships, that this might just hit us a little harder than someone who just clocks in and clocks out at an office job.

JOY: Yeah, I can hear that. I mean, what I hear you saying, Jaime, is, what is my purpose? What is my purpose? My purpose is to serve others in my business. And I serve them by the skill that I have, but they also are a constant presence in my life. I see them every two weeks. I mean I know how it goes because I’m a client and I know what it’s like to see Jaime every couple of weeks. Jaime knows a lot about me and I know a lot about her. It’s a really meaningful relationship in my life for me. And I can’t speak for her, but I can see where someone who works in that capacity might say if they can’t do it the way they want to and used to do it, that they might start to question, well, gosh, you know, what is my purpose? Who am I now, and what might I do, and what am I going to do to ever have that meaning in my life again?

JAIME: I think you nailed that, Joy, because I feel the same way about you so thank you so much for saying that. But it is true that we have these individual relationships with our clients if we’re working in our own businesses. We have a relationship with the larger community. And as part of the beauty industry, I don’t think we were taking as much advantage as we can on leaning on each other, and Ashley, please chime in here, when things aren’t going well. Like we’re, we’re quick to applaud each other when things go well, but I don’t think we’re all that comfortable in offering support to someone who is struggling or has experienced a loss.

ASHLEY: And the flip side of that coin, as well, especially with connecting with other members of our industry through things like social media, we’re not outwardly showing the struggle and we’re not talking about it. So it’s hard to support someone when you don’t have any indication that they need it. But I think maybe here and now we can all just say, we’re all experiencing this to some degree and I think maybe this is the moment where we take the conversation toward something more constructive in, we all know we’re going through it. It’s not a matter of needing to reach out, but knowing that this is our call to action to support.

JOY: I hear you. I mean, I’m a nurse, you know. We’re not very good at taking care of each other either. We should be much better than we are. So even if it just happens, you know, one business to another, it doesn’t have to be nationwide. It doesn’t have to be huge, but things get better one little step at a time. And so even if someone who’s listening to this or the folks that you guys are in contact with, if one practitioner reaches out to another, and it can be just as simple as saying, man, what a year this has been. How has it really been for you? I’m here if you need to talk. And that’s a very simple statement, but that’s all we really need to say to one another. We need to, you know, just acknowledging that, oh, this has been rough, and it’s been rough for me, and I’m here to support you should you feel a need for that.

ASHLEY: Are there any other affirmations or internal work that we can do to acknowledge the grief work that we are doing or need to do and help build some of the resilience that we have?

JOY: As individuals or as a profession?

ASHLEY: I think both, honestly. I know a lot of this work is very personal and it’s something that we will all need to do internally. Are there any resources that you like, or maybe daily exercises that someone could do to start that work in making progress toward whatever success looks like for them as far as dealing with their grief?

JOY: Name the losses as an industry, specific to your industry and how are ways that people in the beauty industry can actually recover and work with the loss and the grief that they have around it very specific to the work that you all do. But there’s definitely websites. There’s books that I could suggest. One book that I really like which is called Grief is a Mess. That’s a book that you can get on Amazon. The other one I really like is Tear Soup, T-E-A-R, Tear Soup. Those are two very easy reads that really talk about what grief and grieving is about. It’s really more about the loss of a person, but anybody can take it and apply it to their own lives. And there’s plenty of people in your profession who are grieving the loss of a person as well, in addition to the financial and the business losses because of the economic downturn. So those are two. Other things are, I think, actually good self-care is really basic. And so one thing that you all might think about as individuals and encouraging in your profession is the basics of getting good rest, getting good sleep, eating well, getting outside, exercising, and some ways to manage stress. This might be an interesting podcast sometime. You know, what are some simple ways that someone can manage their stress response? We can’t change the stressor. The stressor’s there, whether it’s the pandemic, whether it’s the loss of your business. Whatever it is, the stressor is there. The only thing we can change is our relationship to that stressor. And there’s really some very, very great techniques that have been proven, evidence-based techniques that are proven to decrease this flight or fight response, which we’re all in right now because of all the anxiety in our world. And that sort of internal response, the chemicals, imbalances that happen in our body when we are living like that, are very, very detrimental to our health. And there are some really good evidence-based techniques for actually decreasing that chemical response in our body. And that is a much more comfortable place to be in, I can tell you. So those would be some daily habits or lifestyle things that can definitely sustain us through difficult times, no matter what is the precipitant, basic good self care and having someone that you can talk to. It doesn’t have to be a whole crowd of people, but all of us, I think, as human beings need one or two people that we can bear our souls to and know that those one or two people aren’t going to try to change us, aren’t going to give us a lot of unsolicited advice, aren’t going to hijack my story by telling their story. These are people who are good listeners, and aren’t going to try to fix me or change anything, but are going to be able to witness my suffering. So we do need that as well. I think we all need to be heard. Our grief needs a voice. It needs to be told and it needs to have someone listen to it. And so to know who those people are in your life I think also can be helpful.

JAIME: Many members of our industry would fancy themselves as good listeners, but does there come a point where you can’t necessarily absorb all of that or should you absorb all of that when you yourself may need to seek out someone else to share your story with?

JOY: Yeah, you can get overloaded for sure. This again is very individual. I know for me as someone who takes care of very sick patients, I have a ritual of preparing myself to go into the hospital. And I have a ritual of walking out of the hospital where I intentionally leave all the suffering, the sadness, and the difficulties that I faced during that day inside those buildings’ walls. I’m very deliberate in it. I’m very intentional. I do it every day. So someone in your industry can definitely find ways of sort of containing the stories that you hear during a day to day basis. And I do think also, if someone is really feeling overloaded, a person needs to look at, you know, time away if needed, or you need to maybe, if you’re brave enough, preface your time with your clients and say, you know what, today I’m really wanting to talk about funny things. So I’m feeling sort of burdened today and I would rather we spend our time talking about lighthearted things for this appointment. So I think you can ask for what you need from your clients, especially if you know them well. And if you’re not in a space where you can receive what they’re going through, and listen intentionally, and be that receiver, I think it’s in your relationship with what you do, you definitely can put what you need more into the mix. It’s harder for me to do that as a nurse. I can’t do that for hospitalized patients, but in your industry, I think you can. I think you can be more upfront with your clients than perhaps I could be.

ASHLEY: Knowing that we will all inevitably experience loss, is there anything that we can do to prepare ourselves, or maybe just be better prepared?

JOY: I think one thing you probably could do is maybe make a resolution to support a grieving friend differently than maybe you did in the past. Be more walking hip to hip with that person, in supporting them, learning how their grief manifests in their life, sort of go to school on them a little bit while providing some support. There’s a lot of books that you can read, a lot of places that you can go to actually learn how this experience comes. There are health professionals you can talk to about it, mental health professionals that you can talk to about it as well. I guess just not be afraid of it, you know, not be afraid of learning about it and experiencing it either as a community, or within your family, or with a friend. I don’t know how helpful that was, but.

JAIME: I find that incredibly helpful because on a personal note, I haven’t really experienced the loss of a loved one that was close to me until my father died. And that will be a two year anniversary coming up in just a few weeks in, during the holiday season. And I know that this is a time when, if we’re to believe the Hallmark movies that, you know, we’re all to gather together, and it’s such a joyful experience, but we know that the holidays are not necessarily a good time for people. It could be because of something that’s happened around the holidays, or maybe the family is just not that supportive or the types of people that you want to spend time with, which sounds terrible, but I know not everyone has the same sort of family support. So I feel like I’ve had just sort of an awakening listening to you today, Joy, because I think you’ve given me hope that we can educate ourselves and get comfortable around knowing that this will happen to us at some point. And we can do more to prepare ourselves and then ask for what we need from our friends and our family so that we can best manage.

JOY: Yeah. I think you can do that. I mean the one thing too, I’m just going to take a snippet of what you said, Jaime, but this again is I think maybe for your clients as well. For people who are grieving, the holidays usually are not very fun at all. It doesn’t really matter if the death happened around the holiday time like your dad, Jaime, or not. This is a time when we have the illusion of families gathering, and everybody’s happy, and blah, blah, blah. And the majority of us actually have an underbelly to that of some sort. So again, it’s sort of, as you’re working with your clients, this year in particular, it’s, it could be a very sincere question. How are your holidays looking for you? And say it in a way that you really want to know the truth. You want to know what it’s really like cause it’s not going to be the same for any of us this year, for sure. At least, I don’t think so. And then just know, even in the normal times, this time of year is, is difficult for many people. It’s dark out. It’s harder to be upbeat sometimes. And, and definitely the Hallmark holiday gatherings is, is really not the reality for the majority of us.

ASHLEY: I guess, maybe just as a way to close the episode, when we slow down enough to actually feel our feelings, and the lights are off, and we’re trying to sleep, and a million thoughts are running through our heads, what would you like to say to the person who is finally realizing that, yes, this is grief and I need to do something about it?

JOY: Well, I would say that step number one is the most important one: identifying that a person feels the need and recognizes the need for some additional support. That’s the hardest step. Many of us just think we’re the John Waynes of the world, and we’re so stoic, and we’re just going to muscle along, and, by George, we’ll get through, right? Cause we’re, we’re strong and, and we can do it. We’ve done it before and we’ll do it again. And that can only last so long. It will always come to find us. Our grief will always come to find us whether it’s a year later or 10 years later. The first step is recognizing, yes, this is my situation and yes, I do want to find some support. So one way is to look for a mental health professional that you can talk to, a therapist of some sort, not that a person necessarily needs therapy, they just need support. We do so much work through grief groups. And so if there are grief groups in a person’s community, definitely to see what they’re up to. Many bereavement centers are trying to look for creative ways to support people who are grieving because of the pandemic, not just because of someone died, but just what we’re talking about now, the enormous personal and financial losses that we’re all experiencing just because of the isolation and the way we have to live our lives now. So bereavement centers around the country are trying to find ways to address those needs, look for that. Definitely, reaching out to one another and beginning to talk about your experience. I think that is also very important, talking to colleagues, a friend. I keep saying that over and over again like it’s a no brainer, but once you start talking about it, lots of times, you know what happens? People work it out themselves. I think we have a lot of self knowledge, a lot of intuition, that sometimes we just don’t access because we, we do live such busy, compressed lives. And sometimes when we slow down a little bit, that intuition begins to speak to us. So I guess another thing would be to promise yourself between the time you hear this and maybe the new year, that you and whoever listens to this will practice one good self-care thing every day, whether it’s a meditative walk, whether it is reading something on grief, whether it’s a prayer practice, whether it’s working on affirmations, to ground you where you currently are, whether it is doing some journaling around your situation and getting your thoughts and your emotions out on the papers so they can be dealt with in that way rather than spinning around in our heads. But maybe making a commitment to one new self-care behavior that you can promise that you can do each day. It doesn’t have to take a million hours. It can take five minutes or 10 minutes. We all are worth five minutes or 10 minutes of personal time. Each human being is worth that. You all are worth it. So those would be maybe some things to consider.

JAIME: Joy, I want to thank you for sharing so much insight and helping us normalize this experience. We are uncomfortable about it because for exactly the reasons that you’ve stated. We don’t talk about it. We don’t know how to talk to other people about it, and we don’t do enough to take care of ourselves, so I’m looking forward to doing more for myself in the coming months so I can better prepare for what’s next.

ASHLEY: Yes, thank you so much, Joy. I’ve learned so much, and I know that this is going to be a very popular episode with our listeners even though the subject matter is very serious. I know that just having their experience acknowledged is going to go a long way. So thank you so much for giving us of your time, and your knowledge, and expertise.

JOY: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

JAIME: I don’t know about you, Ashley, but I feel better just having had this discussion.

ASHLEY: I feel like a weight has been lifted, even just talking about what we’re all dealing with a naming it. It is grief and it definitely needs to be acknowledged.

JAIME: And that we have some work to do might seem more burdensome, but I think this is the kind of work that will lighten the load for other things that we have to do.

ASHLEY: Definitely, make more room in your backpack.

JAIME: I agree. Well, and on a lighter note, we have a listener review to read.

ASHLEY: Fabulous.

JAIME: This review was left on Apple podcasts by AniNak805. You will learn so much. I’ve been in the beauty industry for over 10 years, and I’m finding that there is still so much more to learn, but I’m particular about where I get my info from. I appreciate the well-researched information and engaging, intelligent guests that Ashley and Jaime present each week. This is an excellent podcast.

ASHLEY: Well, thank you very much for that. I’m thrilled that someone else likes what we’re doing cause we really enjoy creating this podcast and having these really exciting discussions. 

JAIME: Absolutely.

ASHLEY: If you’re enjoying Outgrowth, leave a review on Apple podcasts with just one click. You can visit bit.ly/outgrowthpodcast.

JAIME: As always, you can follow us and comment on recent episodes on Instagram at @outgrowthpodcast.

ASHLEY: All right, until next week. Be smart.

JAIME: Be safe and take care of yourselves.

ASHLEY: Bye.

JAIME: Bye.