ASHLEY: Welcome to Outgrowth: A Slice of Pro Beauty with your hosts Ashley Gregory Hackett.

JAIME: And Jaime Schrabeck. The practice of tipping has a controversial history and in the present day, tip income complicates the way we’re compensated for our work. 

ASHLEY: While advice about tips and tipping etiquette has been directed at consumers, few ask the question: should beauty pros be accepting tips at all? Let’s grow together.

JAIME: Ashley, it goes without saying that many beauty pros rely on tips as part of their overall compensation. 

ASHLEY: And it would seem the system is designed that way, and I think it’s high time you and I take a closer look at tipping and the practice of tipping, just based on some conversation I’ve been seeing, and I know you’ve been a part of as well about why tipping is so important to our industry and why it’s such a touchy subject.

JAIME: I can remember back in beauty school taking tips from the beauty school patrons, the customers, and just putting it in my pocket and not really learning about how tips factor into our overall compensation. 

ASHLEY: I’ve had the same exact experience, even though I went to beauty school about eight years ago at this point. And I was so excited for that $2 tip that I received in beauty school. And you’re right. It went right into my pocket and I didn’t think about it again.

JAIME: What we’re not telling beauty school students and reinforcing among our colleagues is the fact that tips are income. The IRS makes it quite clear that tips, whether they’re given to us in cash or in non-cash forms, that they are considered income and they’re subject to taxes.

ASHLEY: And it’s like a tiny paragraph on one page of the book in beauty school, If you even have that. And it just seems to be like mentioned once for liability reasons and then never mentioned again. And it can vary as far as like the tip procedure based on the salon you’re in, or the discipline that you practice, or where you’re located and the variability about this I think is what creates such strong opinions when it comes to tipping and the practice of it in our industry. On one hand, we want to be considered professionals and on the other, we expect a 20% tip from our clients and get really upset when it doesn’t happen. So, which is it?

JAIME: Before we venture into whether we deserve a tip or not, let’s clarify that another factor is whether or not you’re an employee of the salon. 

ASHLEY: Right, because there’s that old adage of not tipping the owner for some reason, even though they’re responsible for all of the overhead of the business, but hey, you know, whatever. This is such an interesting topic and it’s got so many little branches that go out into other areas of our industry. It’s such a good topic to focus on because it really brings in every aspect of what we, especially you and I, talk about like labor misclassification, exploitation, and service pricing, like all the hits. Tipping touches all of this.

JAIME: If we think about how we got here as an industry, I don’t think enough of us look far enough back into the history of tipping to understand why this is the case. And I know we’re going to touch on this a little bit later, but another factor that comes up that people will point to is that, well, I don’t have to, by law. My state allows my business to pay less than minimum wage and let the customers make up the difference in tips. 

ASHLEY: Yeah. It’s like we, we run parallel to the restaurant industry in a lot of ways. And then in another other set of ways, we want to be completely divergent from the restaurant industry. So it’s like we’re cherry picking little bits and pieces that we want to apply to us or not apply to us. And it’s really rooted in bad business practices, first of all. But secondly, as I know we’ll get into here, it’s really rooted in classism and ultimately racism, how tipping started in our country.

JAIME: We do need to go there, but to recap thus far, let’s agree. Tips are income. That’s how the IRS treats tips and that if you are an employer and your employees are being tipped by clients, you are responsible as the employer for paying the taxes on those tips, even though those tips in whole belong to the employee. Even though you don’t get to keep any portion of that tip, the client tips the employee, and you’re responsible as the employer. 

ASHLEY: That’s very true. And something that I think we have to establish as a baseline before moving forward into the rest of this conversation. These are facts. We’re not trying to peddle some alternate truth here. The IRS absolutely views tipping as part of your income. So whether you put it in your pocket, or you add it to your bank account, or you report it to your salon, no matter what choice you make, there is a hard and fast rule as far as what the IRS views it as and they’re really not putting it up for debate.

JAIME: Let’s dispense with something that we’ve seen happen frequently, and I see this in a lot of higher-end businesses, and that is an automatic gratuity. If it’s not the choice of the client whether to tip or not, if it’s forced, a particular percentage, then that’s considered a service charge and not a tip, and it’s part of your wages. 

ASHLEY: Yeah, same thing. Whether it’s, you know, dressed up in some kind of flowery language or added as a separate line item on the receipt, at the end of the day, it amounts to a tip, or to, like you said, a service charge or a service fee, it all shakes out to be income in the end.

JAIME: It does, and while we encourage clients to be generous, there are some pretty significant financial and tax consequences for that generosity.

ASHLEY: Well, let’s get into it. I’m excited to discuss the role that tipping plays in our industry and maybe what the future of our industry could look like if we were to get rid of tipping altogether.

JAIME: We’re saddled with the comparison to the restaurant industry, which is unfortunate because restaurant workers don’t have the same training and licensing requirements that we have. 

ASHLEY: Agreed. Yet if we’re considered tipped workers the way restaurant workers are, I mean really how much more skilled is our labor considered to be in the eyes of the government?

JAIME: That’s unfortunate, right? The term tipped worker probably rubs a lot of beauty professionals the wrong way. Firs,t the word worker, even just the word worker, someone who performs work. Don’t be offended by the term worker. And that you’re tipped just means that we’re working in an industry where tipping has been pretty standard, even though on a client by client basis, you may not always receive one.

ASHLEY: And I think this also goes back to just good financial practices as a beauty professional in general, which a lot of us either don’t learn getting right into the industry, or we learn from it the hard way, which is stuffing cash in our pockets and just letting it be our iced coffee money, as opposed to declaring it, and accounting for it, and then getting credit for it. You know, if you spend your, your early twenties putting about a hundred dollars a day in your pocket and letting it fly away, easy come, easy go, you’re really setting yourself up for some serious issues down the road when you want to get a car note or a home loan. You can’t account for so much of your income because you’re actually literally not accounting for it.

JAIME: In addition to being illegal, pocketing your tips does have those long-term financial consequences. And I believe that through the COVID pandemic, we saw the consequences of that because we have our colleagues in the industry frustrated that they couldn’t claim more money for their unemployment, or they couldn’t get more in SBA loans, or any other kind of funding, whether it be through the PPP or really anything else that was based on income. 

ASHLEY: It’s very interesting to see how this all shakes out, and then as we start moving back towards more of a quote/unquote normal timeline in our industry, to see that we’re going right back to what we were doing pre-COVID, it’s a little bit troubling only because it’s what landed us in such dire straits financially during COVID to begin with. So let’s get into the history of tipping and where it came from because I think it’s really important to frame it within the historical context of how it started, and why it’s continued, and why we might actually want to take a look at getting rid of it.

JAIME: If you look for the information online, there’s a lot of information out there, but I just happened to come across an organization that’s based in Chicago, Ashley, called the Shriver Center on Poverty Law and they did this very succinct, three-article series. They’re all three worth reading. They’re very quick reads having to do with tipping and the first one focused on the racist history of tipping. And I’m going to read this quote because I think it really captures what this is all about. And that quote is: “Simply put, tipping was introduced as a way to exploit the labor of former slaves.”

ASHLEY: That blew my mind when I saw that because I never really thought about why tipping existed in the beginning or why it was created. I just thought, oh, it was like you did a good job, so it’s based on merit. Let me give you a little extra, and this makes total sense to me because it kind of started that idea of, I don’t have to pay you as much. The patrons will subsidize your wages so I can continue to exploit your labor as the restaurant owner or the business owner, and you’re happy to have any kind of job that I’ll give you, even though I can’t imagine that not paying your employees means that they actually have a job.

JAIME: I reflect back on how I learned about tipping. It was observing my parents when we were at restaurants and we did not eat out often as a family, but I recall knowing how to calculate a tip and how to pay it, but not really giving much consideration to why we were doing it. 

ASHLEY: Yeah, it just seems, especially if you’re an American, it just seems like what you do. And I remember my first time in Europe, I tried tipping, not understanding that this wasn’t a practice done everywhere. I was 17 years old. I was in France and I tried leaving a couple of extra francs for the server and the looks I got that was like, what are you doing? And I just realized, oh, okay, nevermind. That’s not a thing here. But it was actually insulting to the person that was serving me because they’re already being paid. They don’t need the little gold star from me to say, oh, you did a good job. Thanks so much, or whatever tipping signifies, especially to people where it’s not the custom, and I learned a lot in that moment. That it’s really just, it’s not done because other countries and cultures have accounted for the labor to begin with. And so adding a little extra on top, it’s awkward and it’s not done. And it’s been that way since we’ve started tipping here in the US. Europe has always viewed it as a comment on the labor or the exploitation of labor and has not instituted it the way we did.

JAIME: There’s so much to discuss here and I feel awkward even discussing this from the perspective of race, because as a white woman who would be considered in the middle-class, I’m embarrassed that I would ever feel insulted for not getting a tip from a client. And yet, so many beauty professionals put themselves in that category of I’m expecting a tip. I’m expecting it to be at least 20%. Like there all of these expectations that we project onto our clientele and not communicating it explicitly, but through, and we’ll talk about this later, apps and other sorts of technology, and even just through beauty school, it’s reinforced that we’ll be compensated extra to the point that we expect it. 

ASHLEY: Yeah, that’s such a good point. It is an awkward conversation because I think a lot of people will remember the myth of like tip being an acronym for something about like prompt service, which is not true. But then secondarily, I think, and the bigger question here is, why do we assume and apply pressure by custom to our clients to compensate us correctly for the service we’re performing? Because if you really break it down, if you’re expecting a 20% tip on your service, all of the consumer-facing advice about how much to tip your beauty service provider includes commentary on don’t just budget for the service. Budget for the service plus the tip.

And if you’re expecting that 20, or 15 to 20% overage on the service, then your service doesn’t really cost what you’re advertising. It costs that plus the 20%. So if you were pricing your services correctly for what you expect to be compensated and what you need to be compensated to make the right margins, then why not just have that be your price? To leave that up to your client who maybe has those long-held notions of not tipping the owner, or not being from a place like the United States that customarily tips, or understanding that maybe they don’t have it, and they were expecting to pay the price that was listed on the board. Again, there’s so many different things in ways this could swing, and so if you don’t receive that 20% that you’re expecting, instead of going on Facebook and bitching about it, maybe look inward and go, okay. Something is wrong here, whether it be a breakdown in communication, or maybe your expectations are too high, or maybe you’re just not pricing your services correctly.

JAIME: That third thing, you mentioned not pricing your services correctly factors into the second of the articles that the Shriver Center put out. And that was focused on the fact, and it does tie back to the racism, that tipped workers rely on their tips to make a living and they shouldn’t have to, and that living isn’t really a living if they’re still having to access food stamps and other kinds of government aid to support themselves. So we have this situation where we have working people counting on those tips, not because they take great pride in the work that they’re doing necessarily, or they think they’re deserving in that sense, but just really, when it comes down to the amount of money they need to survive, they are truly, truly counting on that money. 

ASHLEY: Yeah, I mean, as a business model, if you’re paying your employees $2 and 13 cents an hour, something is wrong. And something that I’ve always held as a belief is that if you can’t afford to pay your employees, you don’t have a healthy business. 

JAIME: Yes, and here was a statistic that was quoted in the article and that was that we have this misconception that minimum wage is for teenagers and tipped work is for teenagers, extra spending money, when in fact, the majority of tipped workers are supporting families. They’re adults. And so the quote is that “more than half of all tipped workers are women, 35% of whom are mothers, and nearly 60% of tipped workers are people of color.”

ASHLEY: Wow.

JAIME: Which ties right back into the previous article that was written about the history of tipping as a means to compensate former slaves as if their work wasn’t valued in and of itself by the employers. It becomes this subsidy where the direct burden of compensating the staff is shifted onto the client, but it’s completely optional and it’s variable. It’s not this fixed amount where the employer says, well, I’m going to kick in this much. And then the client or customer agrees, well, I’ll kick in this much and together we’ll provide a living wage to these workers. That’s not happening. 

ASHLEY: Yeah, it’s important to remember. I mean, no matter what it looks like now, it’s origins are extremely problematic. And then you look at it now, as it’s like by tipping, or requiring tips, or accepting or expecting tips, we are continuing this cycle as beauty professionals, of this weird merit-based compensation system, and it’s kind of woven through those gray areas and loopholes that we do see so much labor exploitation and misclassification. I mean, think about if you’re a hair artist and your time as like a shampoo assistant, or as an apprentice in a salon. You know, maybe you weren’t being compensated, but you were making tips and that was the justification for you not making any money, or your labor in that moment as you try to get onto the salon floor as a full-blown stylist. Reliance on this, even if in your specific situation it’s not necessarily tied to systemic racism, that’s where its origins are and so continuing this system, we really, I think, need to take a good, hard look at why we accept this system and aren’t doing more to change it.

JAIME: To further understand how the historical context of this plays out today, you need look no further than the Economic Policy institute’s map of the states where minimum wage and the states that have subminimum wage are color coded. And it’s very obvious which states support their workers and which ones don’t. So that this continues is we’re stuck. We are stuck here and what has it gotten us? It’s gotten us the situation where we are entirely frustrated and we’re not doing enough to change the system. And this is the perfect time to think about changing the system because if you’re changing your pricing, if you’re changing the way that you engage with your staff, if you’re making sure that you’re converting your staff from an illegal, commission-based model to a legal, hourly-based pay model, all these things need to be taken into consideration all at once. 

ASHLEY: Well, in a previous episode, I alluded to the fact that where we kind of touched on service pricing, is that from the client side of things, they’re saying over and over again, maybe not to us, but to each other or in other parts of maybe media and social media, that they don’t like the variability of price when it comes time to check out. You know I’ve got more hair than any human woman on my head and it’s very long. And when I go and have my color done, I know on top of the service price, I’m going to be charged a really large product fee. And that’s the choice I make for having all this hair. There is a big amount of variability in the service pricing when I go for color and I don’t love not knowing what the total is going to be, and I could probably articulate that better during the consultation to say like, hey, can you give me a good ballpark idea here? But then when you have that variability, if you don’t know how much the subtotal is going to be, how in the world are you going to be able to plan for a 20%, or a percentage-based, tip on top of that? And so the frustration I’m sure our clients are experiencing, maybe not universally, but I’m sure they’ve run into it a time or two when they’re not sure how much their nail art will be. They’re not entirely sure, again, how much those products or charges will be. It introduces variability into something where you’ve got prices listed, but you’re never charging that price. And so then think about, I mean, really, if you were to remove that additional threshold of like, ooh, now I got to figure out 20% on top of this. Think of how many more clients you would have if things were just straightforward. And I know we’ve also talked about the hourly-pricing model and how that could potentially be a good way to get people to understand how much they need to make an hour in order to make their bills and everything else. I’m kind of a fan of flat-rate pricing, or at least charging what it is that you advertise. I don’t think anybody would have a problem with that. And if it means you raise your prices slightly to come to the point when you’re reaching the amount approaching what your service price is, plus tip, then wouldn’t that just be better for everybody? I mean, I know when I was client facing in a salon type situation, I loved tips because I was always surprised by it. I was always thankful for it and if it was more than 20%, I felt like a very special girl. But when I didn’t receive that, it also made me feel like, oh, maybe that didn’t go great, or maybe I don’t like that client so much. And like, it’s a business, there’s no room for that. And if you’re not adequately pricing your product, as what I suspect this comes down to, it just seems like, then what, what are you doing right if everything is based on this weird arbitrary number?

JAIME: We mentioned the baseline earlier, and I know that in pricing services, a lot of beauty pros and salon owners want to take into account their local economy. What we really haven’t touched on as much is that individual states have their own standards that have to meet the federal standard at a minimum, but in certain states, this is not even an issue. There may not be an option of having a tipped wage or any variability along those lines. It would be at least being compensated the hourly and that’s for employees. I mean I get that. We get stuck because there are so many of us who are independent is pricing that for ourselves. Like, are we ensuring at least minimum wage for ourselves as we factor in our salary expectations into our pricing?

ASHLEY: That’s very true, and I’m hopeful that we’ll see more salons move in that direction, but it’s one of those things that’s so ingrained, I don’t have a ton of hope for it.

JAIME: Let me mention the third article that was offered by the Shriver Center on Poverty Law and that touched on the issue of sexual harassment among tipped workers and how it’s so much higher in terms of complaints from tipped workers. And these articles, many of us think more in terms of the restaurant industry as being the focus, but you know this could happen anywhere. It’s not just in the restaurant industry where sexual harassment could happen whereby a worker feels obligated to tolerate behavior that’s obnoxious at best and criminal at worst to secure that tip. 

ASHLEY: Yeah, I mean the tolerance threshold increases to a point of potentially being dangerous if you know you have to rely on a tip from this table, from this client, from this patron. It’s unfortunate and I think if we were to really examine the practice of tipping, there’s a cost benefit analysis that needs to happen here, literally, about tipping and how you could potentially institute a no-tipping policy that would be easy enough to explain that clients understand why without being insulted to say, we don’t want or need your tips.

JAIME: I wonder how that would make two different types of client feel if that were implemented: the client who tips regularly and generously and the client who doesn’t tip at all. 

ASHLEY: Right. Yeah. Well, because again, if the price is listed as one specific amount, if I’m charging $50 for a gel polish manicure, and someone pays me $50, that shouldn’t be seen as a failure, or as a commentary on my work, or a commentary on the thriftiness of my client, and, and all of these weird feelings and expectations come attached with that. That if you were to just charge everybody 55, it just seems so easy to me.

JAIME: Let’s touch on the PBA’s effort, Ashley, to secure the tax tip credit, which is really, talk about a comparison to the restaurant industry. The restaurant industry has this credit whereby restaurant owners do not have to pay the taxes on the portion of the employees’ tips, where in our industry, we don’t have that exemption. We’re still forced to pay our employees’ taxes on their tips, even though we’re not keeping that money ourselves as employers. Which I do have some mixed feelings about this because while I think the industry should be treated equally, I still think this gets to that point with what we’re trying to tackle here, which is, does this not just end up being a subsidy for employers? 

ASHLEY: Well, I think it would definitely incentivize employers to classify correctly, but then again, if they’re misclassifying, then they’re not concerned about a FICA tax on tips. It’s something we’ve mentioned on this podcast before. We talked about it when Myra Reddy was a guest on this podcast as far as why the FICA tax tip credit is so important for the beauty industry. I think its importance, I don’t want to say it wanes as we get further away from the height of COVID. It definitely would have been a great injection of cash into the beauty industry when all we needed was liquidity to pay our bills. But I don’t think it could be really a bad thing only in that whether it’s a subsidy or not, I think it would provide equal footing to an industry where we don’t really have a lobbying voice, especially we don’t have one compared to the restaurant industry. Why shouldn’t salons have some type of exemption for paying tax on tips that isn’t salon income, but it is beauty professional income? To me, that just makes a ton of sense. Now, I think maybe a good way around this is to just eliminate tipping. So if we don’t get this bill passed, we can at least account for that as salon owners to not have to pay taxes on tips if tips aren’t a thing.

JAIME: An excellent point. And again, this only applies to salon owners with employees. I might mention whether they’re classified as employees or not, because I can imagine scenarios where if you’ve been misclassifying your staff, calling them independent contractors, but it turns out later that in fact they should have been classified as employees, you’re going to owe all of this as back taxes, with penalties and interest. 

ASHLEY: That’s a very good point. It’s something that needs to be considered every time and I know you also mentioned earlier about the role of technology and apps coming into play with regard to tipping. I actually read an article about one such app that is specifically built around tipping, and tipping in the beauty industry, and taking that process away from being included as another line item on a receipt at reception checkout, but instead making it a separate kiosk where you can tip your beauty service provider directly where the money just bypasses the salon entirely. It goes directly to the service provider and then allows you to split it between whether it be like your hairstylist and shampoo assistant, or the person who did your manicure, or pedicure, or however that works in your salon. I’m really interested to hear what you think about this because to me it seems like a great way to bypass your FICA tax reporting requirement as a salon owner.

JAIME: There are so many problems with tipping. One of the problems is that how can the client be assured that the stylist or licensed beauty professional actually receives the entirety of the tip. And so I think this app and others like it tend to solve that problem, but what they don’t solve the problem of is the tax reporting and the responsibility as it stands right now for employers to pay those FICA taxes and to know how much money is being collected. And again, shifting the burden onto the client, it might seem like a gimmick or whatever, but still clients are going to tip in cash. Cash is its own problem. I don’t think it necessarily solves any problems. It’s just another work around.

ASHLEY: And as we discussed in the accounting episode, as far as this flow of money in money out, that we don’t account for, we’re really doing ourselves a disservice by letting that money exist essentially off book and letting it be the slush fund. It just seems like it’s, again, as we continue to talk about this, it really just kind of drives home the point that tipping touches so many parts of our industry, and our daily lives, and our jobs, and how we’re perceived versus how we’d like to be perceived in our industry. It’s a bigger conversation that I think is one that will continue, and hopefully move towards some sort of change. But again, I’m, I’m not incredibly hopeful for that. I just think it’s really important to examine it, and look at what you as a beauty service provider are doing, and if it is the best option, and then question why you’re doing it the way that you’re doing it. Are you just doing it because that’s the way it’s always been done? Or have you taken the time to examine the process and see, is there maybe a better way to do this that’s going to lead me to better income security, but then also a better client experience as well?

JAIME: Where I take issue, and I take it more than one place, is that this technology makes it easier to exploit people, not necessarily help people. We look at a system like Uber and Lyft, which is exploitation on steroids. And so that we have the extension of these apps to include tipping people just to tip them. In other words, they don’t have to have provided you a service, just a direct line to start sharing money with your beauty professional. How is that really any different from cash app or anything like that? I don’t understand how that’s any different. And if you’re still as an employer obligated to pay taxes on that, why would I want to pay taxes on that generosity when I’m not generating any commensurate revenue in the form of services? I don’t understand that at all why anyone would think that was a solution? And then I have to quote someone and I’m not even going to give them credit, other than to say this person said “tipping is everywhere. And even the places where it isn’t, maybe it should be.” This was, this was another tech founder, in this space of, you know, let’s take tipping and make it its own separate app, and it’s like, really? That you think tipping is the solution, wow.

ASHLEY: To me that looks like tax evasion, especially in the face of what’s been happening over the past few months with the new 1099 reporting requirements when it comes to apps like cash app and Venmo. For those of us in the beauty industry that have been trying to circumvent paying the correct amount of taxes by using things that are meant for personal transactions, like cash app and Venmo, that’s why Venmo came out with Venmo Business, because there is a new reporting requirement that requires these apps to report how much money you’re being sent. And it wasn’t always that way, especially for things that are more of a personal transaction. So this just gives you even more, I guess, incentivization to take tipping off of those platforms. So, you know, you don’t want to quote/unquote artificially inflate the amount that you’re receiving, because if you really, really don’t want to declare your tips, and you’re receiving that through Venmo or cash app, they’re going to report that. And now your entire income is being reported versus last year or the year before that information was not necessarily included. So I think there’s also going to be a big wake-up call when it comes to 2021 tax season in 2022 and just the other things that we need to prepare ourselves for. It’s really hard to avoid the IRS. And I think, you know, if we start to remove some of this variability and actually start reporting how much it is that we’re making, first of all, it helps the industry because if you can actually demonstrate through facts and figures that we actually are a viable career option. But then secondly, it sets yourself up for success moving forward in your life. I remember the original point I wanted to make about reporting your tips correctly. You’re blowing this money in your twenties, and thirties, and beyond on iced coffee and lunches out, and if you’re not declaring that you’re not going to get credit for it towards your social security when you’re older. And so as much as I enjoy an iced coffee, I would much rather be more secure in my old age than to have that money come in and go out without accounting for it.

JAIME: Oh, the foibles of our youth, right? Just doing those things because, you know, we can get away with it, or we think we can get away with it. If the IRS were to audit us as individuals, as business owners, they’d have some expectation of us getting tipped anyway so it might factor into the equation, whether you’re accounting for it or not. And perhaps what we need is just more transparency in this entire process and I think the point you make about the variability is part of that. We need to not necessarily share all of our expenses with our clients or get into that kind of detail. But when we do this work for ourselves, and we do this math to determine what our prices are, and remove the variability, what we’re doing is stabilizing not only the experience for the clients, but our own incomes.

ASHLEY: I couldn’t have said it better myself. I think it’s, again, a continuing conversation, something that we all need to take stock of for ourselves. But definitely something to watch moving forward and I have a feeling this will be a topic we’ll be covering again in the future.

JAIME: This will not be the last conversation we have about tips. 

ASHLEY: Exactly.

JAIME: If you’re enjoying Outgrowth, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. You can do that with one click. Visit bit.ly/outgrowthpodcast. 

ASHLEY: As always you can follow along and comment on recent episodes on Instagram at @outgrowthpodcast. And we love to hear what you think about tipping and the role of tipping in our industry.

JAIME: I can’t wait. I get to see you this coming weekend. 

ASHLEY: The party’s going to be in Orlando. It’s going to be very exciting and if you’re going to be there, please make sure that you stop by and say hello. Again, our classes are listed at outgrowthpodcast.com/premiere. And you’re going to hear more about it in a couple of seconds. Until next week, everybody, be smart.

JAIME: Be safe. 

ASHLEY: Bye. 

JAIME: Bye.