Show Notes

ASHLEY: You’re listening to Outgrowth: A Slice of Pro Beauty podcast with your hosts Ashley Gregory.

JAIME: And Jaime Schrabeck. It’s our first episode and we’re tackling a very sexy topic: deregulation.

ASHLEY: Can’t wait.

JAIME: Me either. So stick around and let’s grow together.

ASHLEY: Well, hello and welcome to the very first episode of Outgrowth: A Slice of Pro Beauty podcast. I’m your host Ashley Gregory, along with my co-host, Jaime Schrabeck. Hi, Jaime.

JAIME: Hello everyone.

ASHLEY: We are super excited to speak to you about a myriad of topics in the pro beauty industry and figured it’d be apropos to talk to you a little bit about who we are and why we’re creating this amazing podcast. So Jaime, well go ahead and tell the people a little bit about yourself.

JAIME: I’m a licensed manicurist and salon owner from Carmel, California. I still work in the salon three days a week with clients, but most of my time these days is spent either teaching classes at major trade shows across the country or advocating on behalf of our industry, particularly at the level of our state legislature here in California. 

ASHLEY: Very cool. Well, I also am a manicurist and I’m based in Chicago, Illinois. I have been in the industry and licensed since 2013. Came to the industry quite a bit later in my professional journey and now that I’m here, you cannot get rid of me. I am a session and celebrity manicurist, so I get to do all the fun things. I work on set and I also work with Jaime as an independent beauty industry educator, and together we are industry advocates as you’ll learn more and more throughout these episodes what makes us really ignited to take action on your behalf, our behalf. And each week we will be taking a deep dive into a topic that’s important to help you grow as a business owner, as a person, but most importantly, help us grow together as an industry. So we’ve got a great first topic for everybody this week. 

JAIME: Dun dun dun dun.

ASHLEY: Deregulation, which is a word that sounds very scary and I think it rightly should. It is a pretty scary prospect. But we want to really wrap our arms around deregulation in the next 40 or so minutes together and help you understand what deregulation is, why we are facing it as an industry, and what you as a beauty professional can do about it. So I read this really amazingly terrible quote about deregulation when I was putting together the research for this week’s episode, and here it is. Are you ready for this? It says, you shouldn’t have to get the government’s permission to pursue your dreams. I think rightly so it made me a little bit nauseous.

JAIME: I have no words.

ASHLEY: Yeah, it honestly, and you and I have discussed this topic at length already but together, I think we are of a similar mind on this but deregulation is, if you’re not familiar, it is the process by which our state and local governments get together and determine that we don’t need to carry a license in order to be able to provide cosmetology services. And that, to me, sounds very scary for a myriad of reasons that we’re going to get in to. Jaime, you know a ton about deregulation. You have fought this in many different states. Tell me a little bit about your journey with deregulation and what we need to know as informed beauty professionals.

JAIME: As we enter this industry, most of us, all we can think about is how we do it legally, and how do we get that license that we’re required to have in order to do this work and be compensated for it. So the idea that after all these decades of regulation, that somehow through one bill that might pass through your state’s legislature and be signed by your governor, your license can be essentially meaningless. Any of the training that you had up to that point doesn’t matter because if your industry is deregulated, all the rules go away, all the health and safety rules, all the training requirements, and literally anyone could pick it up and start doing what you’ve done as a career.

ASHLEY: Literally anyone. Those are the two words that scare me the most because I see a lot of this attitude about our industry from the outside of it. I think now all 50 states have some form of regulation for cosmetology services to varying degrees, and anybody who’s ever tried to transfer their license or go to a beauty school in a different state, you know that each state has a different requirement, whether it be number of hours, number of practical versus theory, different types of testing. Every state is different, and so of course, every state’s regulation of our industry is different. But I want to get into a little bit about why this industry in particular is such a target for deregulation. 

JAIME: Oh, it’s a fun topic.

ASHLEY: Okay, Jaime, so if you’ll come along on a ride with me, I want to tell you a little bit about, at least in my theory, why cosmetology and all of its different disciplines are such a target for deregulation. Number one, there are political opinions, and leanings, and ideologies that believe that licensing is an undue hardship or a barrier to entry to the industry or to starting a business. That you shouldn’t have to jump through these governmental hoops, pay for school, take a test, buy all these products, do all this continuing education in order to start your business. You should be able to just open your doors. Boom. Start a business. The other thing that’s so funny to me is these deregulators and these politicians who are putting these bills forth believe, as well, that licensing can create a lack of mobility for those of us who need to move to a different state. Maybe we have a spouse in the military, and those can be wavy lines for us to navigate if we need to move to another place and still do our chosen profession. But I think the number one reason that we are such a target is that there is this pervading belief that the beauty industry is unskilled labor, similar to maybe your first job in high school, working in fast food, or being a hotel housekeeper or something like that, something that’s entry level, absolutely honest work, but it shouldn’t require an occupational license to perform that work. Especially since most of these politicians aren’t spending a lot of time in salons, they don’t believe that there’s really a big danger to public health if just anyone does what we do. I want to get into more of these reasons later, but those for me are kind of the big three. What are your thoughts?

JAIME: Ashley, I didn’t want to talk politics, but your first reason certainly does resonate considering the political climate that we’re in now, and it certainly would be the dream of those who believe that the government has too much control over our lives to do away with licensing.

ASHLEY: Yeah, I mean, on its face, we should all just be able to do whatever we want all the time, right? But that’s not a world that exists because I don’t know how that world would work.

JAIME: That world would work if people could be trusted to do the right thing, which we know does not happen.

ASHLEY: No, because if you’ve ever trick-or-treated at Halloween and you’ve seen the bowl that says, “please take one” and it’s empty. We know some people at their core are not inherently good.

JAIME: Now I’m hungry. 

ASHLEY: You know how I love my analogies and dear listener, you will learn this about me. I love a good analogy to drive a point home.

JAIME: Well, and who’s to say that the candy in the bowl doesn’t contain a razor blade?

ASHLEY: Oh, I love when you take my analogy a step further. Yes, who’s to say? And would you trust your five-year-old to pick up that razor blade and cut you a beautiful new brow without any training, any oversight, any knowledge of sanitation or disinfection? No, you would not.

JAIME: I think we need to consider the purpose of government. It’s to protect the people, from themselves often and from others who would do them harm, whether intentionally or not. While we could argue about how effective the government is at protecting people, or encouraging business, or any of the other things that people think the government should be doing, as far as regulation goes, that is the primary purpose of regulation is to protect consumers of that particular state. What’s fascinating is if you do read the regulations across the states, how differently they couch their priorities, even though it’s supposed to be about consumer safety: the way they refer to clients, the way they describe the licensees themselves, the kinds of things that they ban, the kinds of things they don’t even address. And this is where I know a lot of us get frustrated because we have colleagues in different states, and we would like to assume that what happens in our state is the same everywhere and it’s just not, and there will never be national licensing. I don’t care how much effort we put into this or how we get together as an industry, as long as states maintain control over their own regulations, they’re going to do it. They’re going to do it, and they’re going to charge whatever they want to charge and be responsible for enforcement.

ASHLEY: I agree with you and I love that we’re taking stands right out the gate. You heard it here first. There will never be national licensing. I just think there’s too many moving parts and too many conflicts of interest in order to make that happen. That’s why it’s so important for us to cling to the regulation that we have, because if you live in a world where you think that your license is just a piece of paper, I want you to really imagine a world where that piece of paper is gone. In doing the research for this episode and really making sure that I was informed on deregulation in order to inform others, Jaime, I came across something in my own state of Illinois that is super scary and I can’t wait to tell you about it. Are you ready? 

JAIME: Yes, please.

ASHLEY: I want to talk to you about what’s happening here in Illinois. There is House Bill 5558 that was read on Valentine’s Day. It amends the Barber, Cosmetology, Esthetics, Hair Braiding and Nail Technology Act of 1985, which is our main governing act for our industry in Illinois. It provides that nothing in the act shall be deemed to require licensure of individuals practicing those disciplines if they post a notice at the location at which services are provided that informs customers that the person is not licensed. If you don’t get down with legalese, what this paragraph means for me is that I can work in a salon alongside someone who is completely unlicensed, walked in that day, and as long as the salon owner posts a notice saying, this person is not licensed, they’re good to go. You’re speechless.

JAIME: I am speechless. I’m amazed that they could accomplish that in such a short paragraph.

ASHLEY: Yes, it is just, what three sentences? And the bill language does not stipulate where this posting has to be placed in the salon, how big it should be, what language it should be written in. It doesn’t say if there should be one notice for all unlicensed workers in an establishment. But the way the bill is written and, Jaime, I’m sure you’re familiar with this, as someone who looks at these bills all the time, you have the bill text, which gives you the entire thing as written. Then you also have the bill summary, and the bill summary just gives you like a three or five word little indication of what the bill talks about. The bill summary for this one reads something like barber repeal. It doesn’t explain that this could apply to every single cosmetology practice and discipline in our state. It doesn’t give any inkling that this completely deregulates our industry with one paragraph, and so I actually reached out to the state representative. His name is Allen Skillicorn, and he is a Republican representative from the northern suburbs of Chicago, in the Crystal Lake area, if you’re familiar with Illinois. I sent him a message on Twitter and said, can you please explain why you introduced this bill and what your reason behind it is? And he wrote back, and I want to make sure I read this to you exactly. He wrote back four words and said, “licensure is anti competition.”

JAIME: For whom is it anti-competition and I wonder what his profession was before he became a state representative. You didn’t have to tell me he was Republican. I could’ve guessed that.

ASHLEY: Representative Allen Skillicorn also sponsored House Bill 4462, which is meant to completely remove hair braiders from the cosmetology act and they have been recognized licensed category in Illinois since 2011. Now, I know this is a pretty hotly contested issue around the country. I know Virginia just went through this. So I asked Representative Skillicorn since he was feeling so forthcoming on Twitter with his four word answers. I asked him if he had decided to pursue deregulating any other occupational licenses in Illinois, like, I don’t know, funeral home operators, or what other occupational licenses are there?

JAIME: Oh, just imagine all of the ones that fall under contracting.

ASHLEY: Exactly. That’s my question for Representative Skillicorn is, why is the cosmetology industry usually the first litmus test of where a state stands on occupational licensing deregulation? Why is it that we as an industry are so targeted in state after state after state? And my theory is just that we are a predominantly female industry. We are made up of many minorities from many different places, but we’re also not part of a union and we’re not a generally organized industry that has a lot of lobbying power behind us. So if you want to put a target on our backs, in some cases, sadly, we will likely fall just because we’re not currently organized or even paying attention

JAIME: And the educational requirements to even get into the profession, separate from the training specific to our profession, are very minimal. If you only have to be 17 years old and have either a high school diploma or the equivalent, that’s not much education. So if this is viewed as, rather than a long-term, forever career, but just a stepping stone, or something that you do until you can move on to something else that’s better paying, or more rewarding, or more prestigious, then you’re right. We are always going to be a target.

ASHLEY: We are. When challenged, a lot of these legislators and politicians are saying, well, the bad actors will be weeded out by sites like Yelp. And people just won’t go to those that don’t know what they’re doing. But, in order for that scenario to work, a lot of things have to happen. First of all, Yelp, yikes. But second of all, it means you have to have a bad experience in order to kind of earn your stripes to get to a good beauty service provider. Another argument for deregulation is that because we have to pay for school, and because we have to pay for professional products, and the cost of our licensing, that our services are inherently higher priced, and that gets transferred and translated to our clients, that our services would be less expensive if we didn’t have licensing. That’s where the competition side of it comes into play. But I don’t really see manufacturers lowering the pricing of their products, if this were to happen, do you?

JAIME: No. And so many of them are already selling to those who are not professionally licensed. Some have standards, some don’t. And I will say this now, no client, no consumer deserves to have professional beauty services unless they can afford having them done legally: whatever that means, whether it’s that the workers being compensated correctly, that the taxes are being paid, that everyone has a license, that the health and safety rules are being followed. Compliance, compliance, compliance and compliance costs, money. Anyone who owns a business, regardless of what kind of business, knows that there are likely some rules.

ASHLEY: Right, even if it’s just the golden rule. This is why it’s so silly to me that we’ve decided as a population to move in this direction. I think clients should have essentially a bill of rights wherein they can expect inherent trust that their beauty provider has just a minimum standard of education and skill, and what that minimum is has been set by the state. They’ve been measured against that criteria and found to pass. How about a knowledge of sanitation procedure and the state board rules for infection control? Just at a minimum. You know, we’re not talking about, okay, yes, if our licenses do eventually go away, we know that these things are still true for any type of place you walk into for a beauty service, whether it be a multi-station salon or it’s someone’s kitchen table. How about trust that you will not be gravely injured while receiving a beauty treatment, that you won’t be injected with bathroom caulk, or that you won’t have some type of horrible burn to your eyes while your lashes are being tinted? I also think that there should be a trust that your service will have the desired and expected results, that you’re not going to be part of some kind of experiment. And a “let’s just see what happens” kind of mentality, that someone’s learned something and can produce the results that they say they can. Until that point, I do believe that licenses are our last line of defense from those sadly horrible things happening to people. Our licenses are absolutely under attack and we have to do something about it. This whole idea of change.org and I know, Jaime, you love a petition. That’s sarcastic, or facetious. From the Washington Post, I found this really great quote, it says “licenses are not a barrier to entry. They’re a means of economic empowerment for the people who earn them,” meaning you could lose your job at a salon tomorrow and the fact that you’re holding this piece of paper makes you inherently employable at other beauty service businesses.

JAIME: It’s a distinction that has value because of the laws requiring you to have it in the first place. And those laws were enacted for a reason, and in California, they date back nearly a hundred years. Now, of course, they’ve changed over the decades since some of them have been more or less effective. And I’d like to think that going forward we can certainly review what’s in place and adapt to modern technology, and to innovations, and products and services, and the workforce. But the fundamental value of holding a license, demonstrating your commitment to having the knowledge, whether you comply or not. If you don’t have the license, there’s nothing to hold you accountable. Many insurance companies will not allow you to have insurance unless you have that license. They’re not going to issue a policy, or cover your mistakes, or your negligent behavior, if you happen to injure someone, if you’re not licensed.

ASHLEY: That’s such a great point that, in order to be able to do this profession to the highest levels, or at the very least, to a point where we won’t injure someone, there are so many moving parts and things that have to be in place in order for us to do this. This isn’t a walk in off the street, pick up a comb, and start going to town kind of a job. This is something that has, whether you’ve been in a salon since you were 12 and shampooing, or you decided to learn it last week, there is a barrier to entry in that you have to have the knowledge. There’s another fun argument I saw in the state of Texas. There was an opinion piece saying, why does a cosmetologist have to go to school for a thousand hours to have the new haircutting license and an EMT can be done in 35 days, and which one is more important? It’s like, well, maybe EMTs need to go to school for longer. I mean, if we’re going to use those two extreme examples. It’s, anyone who’s gone through beauty school, you know that you learn the basics, you start trying it, and that’s where you really learn is the troubleshooting, figuring out why you didn’t get the result that you wanted, or different ways to finesse your products and to bring out your artistry. I took a deep dive on this and I found that there is an organization, and I use that term very loosely, called Americans for Prosperity that has put a target on cosmetology licensing across the country. Now this organization is owned by the Koch brothers. This is an organization that works with a specific mindset in order to try to deregulate and make the size of government smaller. Now, whatever your personal politics are, I’m not here to attack you, nor do I expect you to defend them. I just want everyone to be informed that there is a concerned, organized effort to take your license, or to at least make it obsolete. If you want to talk about something scary, what happens when deregulation happens in your state? The bottom drops out of the market and what you were able to charge, that number flies out the window because there’s someone who is willing to do it for 10% of that amount. And I think that a lot of these politicians are going to find, unfortunately, many beauty professionals needing something like public assistance in order to make that transition. Now, I don’t think that’s something that they want through licensing deregulation, but I do think that there is a cause and effect that we absolutely have to pay attention to.

JAIME: The goal is not to make the services as cheap as possible. We could apply that to almost any industry. If by taking the licensing away, or the requirements that make it more expensive to provide the service and to make a living, then we’re just reducing down to essentially the lowest common denominator. And if someone were working alone, we have no control over what they charge. That’s entirely up to them. But in situations where workers are employed, we’re just asking for more exploitation, if that’s the case.

ASHLEY: Agreed. It’s going to create a perfect storm of horrible scenarios. Again, I don’t think that fear-mongering is the word I would use. I do think it’s time to sit up and pay attention to what’s happening around us. There is a fabulous website that I found that will be in the show notes and it is a bill tracker. You can click on any state in the union, or the US as a whole and see what current bills are out on the books or being discussed in your state that have anything to do with the cosmetology industry. And it was very enlightening. I found what was happening here in Illinois and, Jaime, I wanted to tell you about it so badly, but I wanted to make sure that we were able to record this podcast episode so I could tell you live, and have everybody hear, just how scary this is. 

JAIME: There’s so much that you’ve mentioned. I need to unpack some of it. Let me start by saying why I am not a big fan of petitions, and that’s because it’s too passive. All politics are local. Mr. Skillicorn is elected by the constituents in his district. If those constituents contacted his office and let him know exactly how they felt about that particular bill, and that might lead them to not vote for him during his next election, or contribute to his campaign in any way, or perhaps even actively campaign against him, he’d have a different opinion. It would get his attention. So when you sign a petition, again, it’s the most passive thing that you can do. You might likely have not even read the bill yourself. You’ve not done any research on who the author is or which organizations might be sponsoring the bill or supporting the bill. So, you need to do your own research. You need to get invested. You need to be willing to write your own statement, not just parrot talking points or push through some sort of email that’s been put in front of you, because that’s not going to make the case nearly as well as you could make it for yourself using your own life, your own career, your own work as an example, and how it might impact you. If you’re able to engage with a lawmaker, and I know the response that you got was only four words long, I’m impressed that he responded at all. If that’s his thinking, if he thinks such a simple response justifies what he’s trying to do, that gives you a starting point on how to combat that. How do you draft talking points that essentially nullify that justification?

ASHLEY: Yeah, exactly. It gave me a fun window into what we’re up against in Illinois. Now Representative Skillicorn’s only been in office since 2017. Judging by his legislative agenda and what he has put forth through either new bills or co-sponsored bills in Illinois, I have a very good idea also from his Facebook and Twitter pages, what his ideologies are, and I think if Representative Skillicorn thinks that he’s going to use my career and my livelihood as a political football, he is very sorely mistaken. I am absolutely comfortable with leading the charge in Illinois in helping facilitate this conversation. I’ll definitely be rolling out a strategy and working with other contacts in the state to make sure that we get as many eyeballs on this as possible, but the very first thing that I did was I reached out to my representative for my district. Now living in Chicago, there’s lots of state representative districts in the city of Chicago, and I went to a website called commoncause.org because, to be completely transparent, I did not know her name, but it’s Representative Ramirez. I sent her an email. I asked to have a phone call with her if possible, and then I looked at where the bill was in its legislative process, and it has been referred to the rules committee. So then I actually called the office of the chair of the rules committee who happens to be in Chicago as well, and left him a message asking to speak with him to share why I want his support in voting no on this bill. Even if it goes to a vote, it’s still going to be in committee for what looks like a while, but Jaime, something you have taught me is that we have to be vigilant. These are things that I just happened to find on accident, just by looking into it was able to find all this information and something that required my action immediately.

JAIME: I know it’s not your favorite platform, but Twitter is the place where politicians live, and along with those politicians are journalists and who’s going to amplify your message? Journalists. And you’ll have the opportunity. You make your voice loud enough. You make your points. You’ll be contacted by journalists who are writing articles because these are hot topics.

ASHLEY: They’re very hot topics. I know we wanted to do, and we will do in the future, an entirely separate episode about advocacy and what this process looks like when maybe there isn’t the immediate threat of deregulation, but what are some resources that you would recommend, or that you really liked, Jaime, that can get them started?

JAIME: Well, I certainly appreciate you including in the show notes, commoncause.org because that’s a place, and there are others, where you can find your representatives, whether it’s at the federal level or the state level. But truly, deregulation happens at the state level if it’s going to happen at all, because that’s where the regulations reside is at the state level. So you do really want to focus on local politics in that sense. You’ll also be able to review through a portal, and we can also include that in the show notes, for your state’s legislature, what bills have been introduced. And you can click through, you could see all different information about the bill. I would like to add that as far as a resource go, literally just having the time, and it may seem like this would take a lot of time. It can, but just be committed to paying attention. And finding those people, for example, you in this role in the state of Illinois, someone who will be doing more, I should be paying attention to you if I am a licensee in Illinois. I should be observing what you’re doing and responding when you ask me to.

ASHLEY:  And you made such a great point in saying that we need to be respectful when we have these conversations. The level of political discourse right now is at an all time low. So especially if you’re going to be tweeting at someone or posting something on Facebook, you have to lose the expletives. You have to lose the name calling. If you’re going to debate someone on the issues and win, it’s because you’re debating the issues. It’s because you’re well-informed. It’s because you have talking points and you are, I mean if we’re taking it back to high school debate, you have to be ready for what your opponent is going to say next. I’m not alleging that the beauty industry is perfect. I think that there’s a lot that can be fixed with our schools, with our continuing education, with the fact that we are so wildly different across state lines, but deregulation is not the answer to fixing those issues. I think pretty much everyone can agree on that. So it’s about protecting our licenses. It’s about protecting the effort you’ve put in to get where you are in the industry now. Just being very vigilant and very vocal about keeping your license, keeping its meaning the same as what it is now, and being involved. That’s really the most we can ask. This is something that we will only be able to win if we win it together, whether that means across state lines and getting people who you know live in that state involved, sharing and amplifying messages, and just lending your support. Even if it’s not happening in your state, it doesn’t mean it won’t. And I am a perfect example of that.

JAIME: The biggest frustration I have are those that react particularly emotionally after a bill has already passed. It’s been signed into law. In fact, it may have already been in effect for months or years before they realize that that’s the law. And then there’s this huge realization that somehow it’s wrong, or how dare they do that, or who made this law? That’s what they’re counting on. They’re counting on us to not pay attention. We’re so busy doing our work, dealing with our clients, spending time with our families, living our lives that we don’t take into account  how much of that is controlled by the legislature. And so the best argument against anything that you feel is not fair, or inappropriate, or going to hurt you in some way, whether it be your economic standing or your health, is to make the legal argument. Now, none of us is expected to be a lawyer, or to even necessarily understand exactly how laws are written, and that’s something I do take issue with. I wish that we didn’t have to be so sophisticated at times to really understand what the law is communicating. We shouldn’t have to ask, well, yeah, I read all of those words, but what does that mean again? I don’t quite understand. We shouldn’t have to hire a lawyer to follow the law, or to even understand it, but here we are. So making a legal argument would be great. Making an economic argument, that’s strong as well. An emotional argument, maybe not as much.  

ASHLEY: It’s up to each of us to become a much more active participant in our industry. And it doesn’t mean you have to be everybody’s best friend or that you have to all do things the same way. It’s that we have the strength in numbers and have to use it in order to ensure that our livelihood is protected. There’s just so many ways that these different deregulation actions can come at you. For me in Illinois, it’s literally one paragraph that makes anyone available to work in a salon setting who isn’t licensed just as long as people are notified that they’re not licensed.  It’s just one little tweak of language that can make something so completely different. The other bill in Illinois is just crossing out the word hair braider in the entire act, and, and just erasing that license from existence. This is why we have to be vigilant because it’s not going to be called ye big old deregulation, big, bad monster bill. It’s going to be subtle and it’s going to be slow. And this is why we have to pay attention. You’re not going to be hit over the head with it. It’s going to come at you in drips and drabs. And that’s why we have to really hold the line. It’s not something, like I said, that’s going to happen all at once and the rug gets pulled out from under us in every state. It’ll happen slowly, and as the dominoes fall, we’ll start to see there’s more deregulated than there is regulated, and what does that look like? What does that look like for interstate commerce? People moving from one state to the other because their license is protected across the border versus where they live. There’s so many different things that can happen that we have to be really tuned in on, and doing something about. I think this has been a super fun discussion of deregulation because we talked about every aspect of it. But Jaime, if there’s anything else you want to add, I would love to hear your final thoughts.

JAIME: I’m not sure I have final thoughts. I have more thoughts but let me say that having a state deregulate it’s cosmetology licensees essentially renders whatever training that might’ve taken place previously useless and other states are not going to recognize your experience or anything else that you might’ve done before that happened because now anyone can do it. So instead of actually increasing the possibility of being able to move from state to state, you’ve essentially ruined it. And your point about things happening bits at a time, taking a larger scope of practice like cosmetology and looking at, okay, so what in there could we easily deregulate? Well, shampooing, styling. If it was required before, heck, everyone shampoos their hair at home. Everyone can style their own hair. What’s the big deal? Let’s just deregulate that portion of it. That’s where it starts. Once that happens, it is that slippery slope. And I would say that often, because we do have individual licensing, and in my case it’s a manicuring license, just because something is happening that doesn’t affect me directly and it may be affecting estheticians or cosmetologists, you must, you must be involved because it’s them this time. Next time, it’s you. And you’re going to need the support of other professionals to essentially have your back.

ASHLEY: Yeah, we have to have each others’ backs. That’s kind of job one and unfortunately this isn’t always a team-based industry, and that is exactly what they’re counting on. It seems like it could be a small thing and happening in drips and drabs and, well I don’t, that doesn’t personally affect me if shampooing is deregulated. Okay, but what happens when it does? And what happens when the bill is worded such that they find some sort of loophole and now your license means nothing? You’ve lost the investment in your schooling. You’ve lost the investment in maintaining your license. And you’ve lost a lot of opportunities to teach other people. I mean the list goes on and on. The ripples from this wave will go on for a very long time. So that’s deregulation in a not-so-small nutshell, but I think that we really had a great conversation about it. But what we want from you is to hear what you think. So we have lots of different ways for you to get in touch with us. And we’ll have the opportunity for you to participate in a bigger way. We’re planning on taking questions, answering them on the podcast, doing different episodes where we take a deeper dive into lots of different topics. And, Jaime, I’m really looking forward to it.

JAIME: I am too because there’s so much to talk about. There are so many perspectives and we have lots of friends.

ASHLEY: We do have lots of friends. I don’t know why, or how it happened, but we have lots of friends in this industry who want to come on and share what they know, cause we do know quite a bit, or at least we know a little about a lot, but we’ve got some friends who are subject matter experts who are going to give you fact-based, correct information. I personally am a big fan of social media and marketing, so I know there’s going to be a lot of discussion about that. Jaime, you teach amazing techniques and get everybody really rallied around this huge advocacy piece, and I think that really came through. We’re going to have a mail bag of course. We want you to follow us on social media. We are sharing everything we talked about today in reference from our sources in the show notes. If you have a question for us that you would like either one of us to answer, or one of our subject matter experts, you can send that to outgrowthpodcast@gmail.com. Of course, you can follow us on Instagram at @outgrowthpodcast, and I think that should about do it. What do you think?

JAIME: Sounds great.

ASHLEY: Awesome. Well, we’ve got our first episode in the books. Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you next time.